More problems, help!

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Hi folks, <br /> I've been away for awhile, but I have a new development with my force, and I need help. Please bear with me, this is a long post but I want to give you some background so I can solve this problem.<br /> To recap, I have a 1990 18' bayliner capri 1800 bowrider with a 1990 force 2 stroke 3 cylinder 90 hp outboard. I had originaly complained about not getting on plane soon enough, and engine dieing at low speeds and idle. I decarbed the engine and was going to do a compression check and adjust the carbs as per advice given here. I did decarb it, (probably not enough though) but I decided to have the rest done at a shop and have the engine checked out as well at the shop. The last time I took the boat out before I took it to the shop, I had already decarbed the engine, and the boat ran good at first. After running for awhile I shut it down and sat in the water for awhile.(eating lunch with the kids). When I tried to restart it, I had all kinds of trouble. I eventualy had to spray starter fluid in the carbs to make it run,( I tried premix but it wouldn't do the trick.) When I did get it running it stalled several times in neutral, and going from neutral to drive would make it bog down and die as well. I eventually got it running again by gunning it in neutral and then immediately wot in gear. (I attempted this several times before I finally got it running.) Once I was able to run wot for awhile it ran ok at higher speeds. (no bogging down ) It ran ok at slower speeds for awhile comeing into the marina, but eventually stalled about 50 feet from the dock. I didn't want to deal with it anymore so I paddled in (embarrasing!) and traillered it and took it home. <br /> At this point, this is when I decided to take it to the shop and have them look at it. When I picked it up, the guy told me "she runs great". The compression check results were, top cylinder 130, middle cylinder 135 bottom cylinder 120. The spark was 1/2 ". Here is what the guy wrote on the reciept as far as the work done.<br /><br /> " Removed idle fuel recirculating covers, cleaned screens & reset check valves. Adjusted carb idle mixtures & idle speed. Replaced spark plugs, checked timing & pick-ups. Test ran, all checks at shop ok."<br /><br /> The guy also mentioned it wouldn't fit in their tank so they ran it on muffs. <br /><br /> Have patience, I'm almost done! I took the boat out today, the first run after takeing the boat home from the shop. I tried to start it without choke and it wouldn't start. No surprise there. I then choked it and it still wouldn't start. No biggie, it's still cold. Repeated 2 more time with choke, still no start. Now I'm a little worried. I then tried to start it without choke, and after a few tries it started and ran without stalling. Great! This is the first time I was ever able to start it for the first time in the morning without using starter fluid or pre-mix! I'm now starting to feel good about taking it to the shop instead of working on it myself. It purred along at idle and when we took off it purred along through the no wake zone with no problems. I then took it to wot for a few minutes and it topped out around 30 mph in choppy water. Thats good enough for me. I then cruised around for 30 to 45 minutes at 15 to 20 mph, then stopped in the middle of the lake so the family could eat lunch. We sat for maybe 20 minutes and then I tried to start it. It almost caught once or twice, and then it just wouldn't start at all. I then choked it and it sputtered a bit but still wouldn't start. (When I choke it, I have to take the cowling off to manualy activate the choke. I'll eventually fix the choke, but I want to get it running good first.) I choked it again and nothing. Not even sputtering this time. I let it sit for a minute and then tried starting it with the cowling off and no choke. Eventually it got going, but it was real weak, like it was at least 1/2 the rpms it should have been, and some hesitation as well. I let it run a bit, then I put the cowling back on and there was a momentary drop in rpms, almost like it was missing, and then imediately picked back up again. I'm sure the engine bogged down, it wasn't the reduction of noise, but a difference in rpms as well as a reduction in noise. I put it in gear and it started bogging down. I ran it in neutral for maybe 15 or 20 more seconds and then put it in gear at the lowest speed. It ran ok, and eventually I was able to run at wot again. I then headed back to the marina at about 15 to 20 mph. No more problems. At the no wake zone it ran fine at low speed, but stalled once. I was able to start it back up on the first try with no more stalls or hesitations. (For the first time in my short time owning the boat, I was actually able to shut it down after tieing off at the dock, instead of drifting in with a stalled engine!)<br /><br /> So what is going on here? When I took the cowling off,I did notice gas around the gas line going in to the carberateur, and gas on part of the carberateur bowl. There was also gas elsewhere around the carberateur. Do I need to rebuild the carbs? Why does the boat run fine at first and then have problems if I shut it down and then restart? Should I be gradually slowing down from wot to low speeds? Should I idle for a while before shutting her down? It almost seems like it's getting gas after I shut it down, (flooding the engine) Hopefully you guys can help me figure this out. I'm not sure if I should go back to the shop, I really don't know much about engines and I'll probably get screwed big time. It seems like it's a simple fix, I just can't diagnose it because I don't have the experience.<br /> <br /> Another thing, for the work the guy did, he charged me $203.33 Do you guys think thats a good price? <br />Thanks in advance!
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,755
Re: More problems, help!

Price for service seems about right. There is a lot of time involved in doing it right.<br /><br />I have something for you.<br /><br />As these motors get to be 10-15 years old, the diaphram in the fuel pump deteriorates. When it does, it leaks fuel through the pump, into the engine block, essentially flooding it with fuel.<br /><br />Order up a fuel pump rebuild kit from your Mercury dealer, or from Mercruiserparts.com<br />They are about $4, and will only take you a half hour to install it.<br />I would order up the gaskets for the pump too, part numbers 1, 4, 7, and 8 in this picture. <br />mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=FOB4494-1&ivar=images/FORCE/FOB4494.1/19.png&inbr=1328&bnbr=8&bdesc=FUEL+PUMP<br /><br />Double check that your fuel pump looks like the one in the picture. There is another type pump on some models, it is a square block.
 

gotmach

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
44

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Thanks guys,<br />I'll get to work on that fuel pump.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Hey folks,<br /> I've been busy, so I haven't had time until now to get to the fuel pump. I just finished it up, man what a pain! Getting it out and apart wasn't so bad but putting it back together was a pain. The spring in the midle of the pump just wasn't cooperating!<br /> Any way, the original gaskets didn't seem that bad, they were stif but there were no obvious holes or anything. They stuck to both sides of the fuel pump when I tried to pull them off, took a half hour just to scrape all the gasket off the housing. Underneath the spacer plate gasket, (mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=FOB4494-1&ivar=images/FORCE/FOB4494.1/19.png&inbr=1328&bnbr=8&bdesc=FUEL+PUMP) (Part #4)<br /> I found a little bit of foam that looked like it came from the insulation on the inside of the cowling. There was also some white fibre like material, real soft like spider webbing or something. So I cleaned it all up, replaced the gaskets and the pump diaphragm and put it back on. I had to take off the (not sure what it's called) piece that holds the coils to get to the fuel pump. When I put it back on it looked like some of the wires might be touching the engine. Is that something I need to correct?<br /> I'm going to take the boat out tomorow and see if it still runs, or blows up in my face!<br /><br />Edit* Forgot to ask. What kind of lube do you guys recomend? Seloc says to use US Marine Lubricant T2961 for everything but the prop shaft. If I can't find that anywhere, is there something else I can use? West Marine is about 1.5 hours away and I really don't want to drive there for the us marine lube unless I have to.<br />Thanks in advance!<br /><br />Edit* I realized I wasn't too clear on the lube. I want to lube the (again, not sure what you call it.) steering mechanism in the back, it's looking kind of dry. Do I need to get the quicksilver or mercury stuff or will any marine lube do?
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,755
Re: More problems, help!

First off, US Marine has been out of business for 15+ years, so you won't find it anywhere.<br /><br />Lube for what?<br /><br />Lower unit lube?<br />Use any brand made for marine gearcases, except the OMC type "C" lube.<br /><br />For grease fittings and steering cable, use a marine grade grease.<br /><br />For shift and throttle cables, I use a graphite lubricant.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Thanks Roscoe, I was talking about the grease fittings on the back of the boat. I'm not sure if it's called the stern bracket or the swivel joint or swivel bracket. But I want to lube everything that moves at the back of the boat. I am also going to change the lower unit lubrication. <br /> I bought some lube for the lower unit at walmart last night, I'll make sure it's not omc type c. So I'm assuming I can use any marine grade grease for all the grease fittings in the back? <br /> Sorry I can't be more clear, I don't know the names of all the parts yet. The seloc manual isn't very good for me, the writers assumed that the reader would have some experience with engines, which I have none. But I'm getting there!
 

imported_bjs

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
368
Re: More problems, help!

i just use a good wheel bearing grease like for your boat buddies.i hate to see you have all this trouble.i have 1998 120hp force17.3 triton knock on wood i have not had any problems with mine but having a force motor makes them hard to sale.my next boat will have a yamaha.because mercury is no better.guys in fishing club have a lot of trouble with them.make sure your primer bulb is staying frim.thats a little motor to have on a 18ft boat.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Thanks Racer. The problems I'm having are probably relatively minor to some of the stuff I've seen on this board! I'd be in a lot better shape if I actually knew what I was doing!<br /> I have been making sure the bulb stays firm, I just hope the fuel pump gaskets are the solution.<br /> I was asking a boat salesman just the other day about a trade-in, and as soon as he heard bayliner he asked what motor I had. When I told him it was a force he said he wouldn't take it. Pretty bad huh?
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,755
Re: More problems, help!

Any marine grade grease should work.<br /><br />Your Force motor isn't that bad.<br />It lasted 15 years, so with proper maintenance it should last 15 more.<br /><br />Dealer won't take it because he can't make any money on it.<br /><br />You will need to spend some money on all motors, either maintenance, or repairs. As long as it doesn't leave you stranded or need a major overhaul, keep it.<br /><br />The Seloc manual isn't very good for Force motors.<br />If you want a little better one, get a Clymer manual. Its more detailed about all the different model variations, and easier to understand for the inexperianced.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Well, I'm trying to get the maintenence part done! I just changed the lower unit oil and the stuff was pitch black! I put in some walmart stuff, it was called super tech marine high viscosity sae 80w-90 lower unit gear lubricant. On the back of the botle force was one of the brands listed. Hope thats the right stuff!<br /> I had to use some nylon washers from Home Depot in place of the gaskets for the vent, fill and drain plugs. The original gaskets looked pretty bad. I chewed up the plugs pretty bad getting them off and back on, I guess I'll have to order some more from mercruiser.com.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Well, bad news all around. I took the boat out yesterday evening, and the fuel pump leaked like a sieve. The embarasing thing is I should have checked by squezing the bulb while the boat was still in the garage. It would have saved me a long trip for nothing. <br /><br /> I Put the thing back together as tight as I could, but it wasn't good enough. I'm debating on whether I should continue to try to make it work or just give up and order a new pump. I don't think I can tighten the screws any tighter, maybe I need to take it all apart again and put it back together. Maybe a gasket slipped somewhere, or a piece of crud got in between the pieces.<br /><br /> Anyway, as I was inspecting the bearing buddies I noticed grease coming out the back. I also noticed that the tread on the tire (which looks fine when I'm standing up) has cracks all over the place. It's a wonder the tires didn't blow the first time I took the boat out. So today I ordered new tires and also ordered a spare.<br /><br /> So, bottom line is, I need to take care of the fuel pump and the bearings and seals. The boat won't be going out for some time. Fortunately here in northern Ca. the weather is still warm, and I am determined to get the boat out before the new year.
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

I've decided to order a new fuel pump, and keep the old one for parts. That way I can eliminate the fuel pump with absolute certainty, and be confident at least THATS not going to break down on me anytime soon. It's already ordered, but I was wondering, Will I need to make any adjustments? I called Bam online and they said it's fully assembled and ready to go, just put it in, no adjustments needed. Does that sound right to you guys? I have no reason to doubt them, I just want to be sure. Any potential problems any of you might see?
 

imported_bjs

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 21, 2005
Messages
368
Re: More problems, help!

just dont give up im sure the boat can be fixed.ive never put on a fuel pump before.so i could have did the same thing.as for the dealer dont feel bad same thing happend to me.i told them that a mercury is not any better motor.im not much help.i run that oil in my lower unit to.i think the oil being black is normal.good luck.
 

monkeyboi

Seaman
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
54
Re: More problems, help!

with the cowling off, did you see fuel coming from anywhere?<br /><br />you said there was some on the bowl & lines.<br /><br />could possibly be sticking or cracked float in carb.<br /><br />good luck with pump
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Sorry I took so long to reply, I had to go out of state for several days. Anyway, the fuel pump came in yesterday. I have to leave for the weekend, so I'll put it on next week and see what happens!<br /> Monkeyboi, I don't remember the details anymore (about the original post), it's been so long! If you are refering to my October 11 post, I did have the cowling off and saw gas squirting out of the pump when I squeezed the bulb. It was coming from where the 2 main parts of the fuel pump are attached, it was pretty bad! Not sure what happened there, but I felt it was better to just order another pump rather than continue to mess around with it.<br /> I did get new tires and seals for the trailer, and a spare tire to boot. Hopefully I can have that boat out on the water soon!
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

Hey folks, I finaly installed my new fuel pump. I squeezed the primer bulb and made sure there are no obvious leaks. All seems good, I'm going to try to take it out soon for a test run. <br /> I have a question. The new fuel pump seems to have an additional port that the old pump didn't have. It's at the top left of the pump if you are looking at the pump as it sits on the engine. On the outside of the pump there is a metal valve for a hose or line, and on the inside there is a valve that is maybe 1.5" long, with a very small diameter. Is this an exhaust valve? An oil injection port? Is the pump going to work or do I need to somehow seal it up? Should I try to run the engine?<br /> Just to refresh, it's a 1990 force 90hp 3 cylinder outboard.<br />Thanks!
 

Kalian

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
598
Re: More problems, help!

After replacing the fuel pump and plugging the extra port on the advice of the shop guy, I FINALY was able to take it out today. I had a heck of a time getting it to start, I had to hit it several times with starter fluid(Forgot the premix bottle, DOH!) and it died several times but finaly started runninmg. When it ran at idle for several minutes with no hiccups, I took it out and it ran great. I got up to 34 mph at wot, which is 5 miles faster than the fastest I had it before. Probably due to the fact that I was alone this time? I normaly have about 350 extra pounds on board.(wife and kids.) I cruised around at 20 to 30 mph for about 30 minutes or so, then turned it off for about 2 minutes then turned it back on. It started right up the first time with no problems. I would have stayed later but it was getting dark. I'm gonna get my fishing license and I'm going fishing this weekend! Thanks a million Roscoe, if you're ever in northern Ca post on dockside chat so I can buy you a beer!<br /> Ps, I replaced the gas lines on the carbs, no more gas or oil on the bowls.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,755
Re: More problems, help!

Cool.<br /><br />So far I can collect a beer from CA, a steak from TX, some crappie fishing in AR, and a beverage in OH.
 

mikmic2

Seaman
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
74
Re: More problems, help!

Roscoe,<br /> Thanks for your help. I don't live to far from you. I live in Chippewa Falls. If my Force stays running long enough, I will offer you some Bass fishing near Stanley Wisconsin. <br /><br />All you have to do is show up at the Boat Landing.<br /><br />P.S. If you have one, bring an extra oar.
 
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