1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

[neil25]

I recently purchased a 1995 Force 120. It runs really well. On some occasions (not every time) when we turn off the engine it won't restart. Have checked spark – Fine. It smells like it is flooding when it does this. I manage to start it by opening the throttle full and cranking for about a minute or two. It starts and slowly revs up like a flooded engine. Once going it is fine again for a couple of hours, even turning on and off a few times. It seems t be worse if the engine is left off for longer (about 5 minutes) and it does it again. <br />Saw a posting on using the choke when starting. My son tried to start it last time we had the problem he may have pushed the choke in (you know kids they press everything at once). Would that cause the problem? If so is there a way to disengage the choke?<br /><br />We have replaced fuel filter and spark plugs nothing else.<br /><br />Thanks for your assistance.

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Welcome to iboats neil.<br /><br />It likely is flooding.<br />Would bet money it is leaking from the back side of the fuel pump into the powerhead and flooding it. They get old and deteriorate, and wear out faster if you use gas with alcohol in it.<br /><br />The fix is to replace the fuel pump diaphragm and gaskets.<br />It comes in kit form from Mercury, part number 21-857005A1, about $18. Should come with an instruction sheet.<br /><br />There is a generic pump kit out there that will save you a few bucks, but it doesn't fit as well and has no instructions.<br /><br />

 

[noshelter]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hi Neil, just wondering if you can update your situation. I had a very similar problem with my 120hp over the past weekend. Were you able to repair the problem, and if so, how? I will not hijack your thread and will instead post my own, thanks.<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Originally posted by roscoe:<br /> Welcome to iboats neil.<br /><br />It likely is flooding.<br />Would bet money it is leaking from the back side of the fuel pump into the powerhead and flooding it. They get old and deteriorate, and wear out faster if you use gas with alcohol in it.<br /><br />The fix is to replace the fuel pump diaphragm and gaskets.<br />It comes in kit form from Mercury, part number 21-857005A1, about $18. Should come with an instruction sheet.<br /><br />There is a generic pump kit out there that will save you a few bucks, but it doesn't fit as well and has no instructions.<br /><br />

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Thank You for the advice. Will look at it this weekend to see if I see flooding and if so will replace the part get it sorted out.<br /><br />SSS. no problem butting in, it is nice to know we share the problem. I may not get to everything this weekend but as soon as I have an answer or update I will post it.<br /><br />Have a good one<br /><br />Neil25

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hi <br /><br />As promised her is an update.<br /><br />I went out today and checked out the choke issue (found on this forum) mentioned in my first request below. That seems to have been the problem. Once it has run and we switch off, when we restart we must have pushed the key in while starting (my kids usually start it) and engage the choke. A hot engine and a full choke do not like each other much so it floods.<br /><br />Today we made sure we did not touch the choke and it started every time. <br />I am going to see how it goes in the next couple of sessions and if I still have problems will change the diaphragm.<br /><br />Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[noshelter]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Thanks for the update Neil. The choke button may be my issue a little bit also. When I bought the boat, the owner said to choke ONLY for the first crank. Once it starts and dies, NEVER choke, only turn the key and crank until it goes again. I must admit though, I am guilty of pushing in the choke button again if I don't get it fired right after the initial firing and dying out. Looks like I should "heed" his advice and leave the choke alone after the first cranking.<br /><br />With my issue, I went and cleaned all the poles to the battery. Refilled the battery with water, also cleaned and filed the starter cable (each end). Fired it up and it fired with no problem. So we will see what happens. I'm planning on taking it out tomorrow and will post an update again. <br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

A year later and I thought I had solved it but alas?I still have the same problem. I thought it was the choke (see previous posting) and it seemed to work with no problem the last few times. Took it out for the first time this year and after starting up (fist time no hassles) disconnected the choke wire to prevent us form accidentally engaging it. Ran perfectly. Switched off twice for 10 minutes and it immediately restarted. Third time switched off for 30 minutes and it would not start. Cranked perfectly numerous times until battery finally went flat and had to get towed. All previous tricks did not work.
I have not as yet replaced the fuel pump diaphragm (previous postings) I though it was the choke. Will order one. Just wondering if anyone has an updated/similar problem. The one thing that I wonder about is that it does not even try and kick over it sounds like there is NO spark. I could not check it there, but when I got back tested the spark and it was fine. If it is flooding can it appear to have no spark i.e. just crank it and does not attempt to turn over at all. At one point the engine seemed to run faster and ?assist? the starter but still did not actually fire up.

Any updates will be appreciated.

 

[NFA]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hi Neil, this is SSS, I've since changed my ID. Sorry to hear about your problems there, after a year especially!

I was having the same problem as you are experiencing. The engine would crank and crank and crank until basically the battery was completely drained. I went and did everything I could think of including:

filing all the poles and connectors including the battery poles, starter cables and connections, also filled up the battery, made sure it had a full charge, etc

This didn't do anything to solve my problem though

So then I looked at the starter. The engine would crank hard and fast for only 1, maybe 2 rotations. After that it the starters' power would die way down and I could just feel the battery being drained (I felt for it ) Anyways, pulled the starter and had my mechanic rebuild it, he installed new brushings and cleaned it out. Cost me $100. This helped dramatically, but not 100% Now I had an engine that would turn over like crazy with no problem. But I still had some issues with actually turning over.

After reading a bit more into it, and my own personal observations, I realized the idle was set way too low, around 600RPM. Called up my mechanic, asked him to show me where the idle setting screw/nut combo was, he showed me, took it out to the lake, set the idle to where I like it, 1000-1100RPM. And since then I have had no problem with the engine turning over (new starter / battery / spark plugs), and actually firing (I'm guessing due to the increase in idle).

My starting procedure is like this...

Drop the boat in, drop the engine.
Prime the hell out of it, until that ball is almost impossible to squeeze.
Put it in neutral at high idle.
Push in the key (to engage the choke), turn the key.
It turns over and over for a few, then spits out, "coughs". Never actually fires.
Dis-engage the choke, and turn the key again. It starts "almost" immediately. Not right away, but pretty quick. I leave it in high idle for a few minutes, usually while I park the truck, etc.
Also, dropping it into forward at low idle is no problem either. With the higher idle, it feels more accepting going into forward and reverse, etc. It puts a smile on my face, that's for sure
Haven't had any issues with re-start after a good run either.

I would take a look at the idle next.

Good luck with it Neil, let us know how it goes.



SSS

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

No matter what is wrong, the FIRST thing any Force owner should do when having starting problems is to change the spark plugs. The Force ignition system acts like a magneto and puts out the least amount of voltage just when you need it the most: at starting. The surface gap plugs are supposed to be more resistant to fouling but in my experience the opposite is true.
So: I always carry a spare set of clean plugs and a 13/16 wrench--just in case.

 

[NFA]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Very true Frank, forgot to mention that I had switched out the plugs to start the season as well. Still didn't fix my problem, but now with the latest changes (starter, idle setting), I'm sure the new plugs don't hurt

Thanks for that;



Scott

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Thanks NFA and Frank

I am going the whole hog. i purchased eth part for the carb that was mentioned in the earlier posting and am getting new spark plugs (we just realized we never changed them at all when we had the problem just cleaned and checked them for spark - I thought it was carb problems !!) Than I am going to attack the idling. I don't have a problem starting up it is once it had run for a while and **** down that it will not start. Started seems fine, can go far a log time before it drains the battery.


I am going on vacation for two weeks so will not be able to report back for a while but will let you know how it goes. Thanks for your help

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hi All

I am back form vacation. I have tried pretty much everything with no luck. I hope someone has more advice or I will need to take it to a boat repair shop. I am not very talented in this area sp nay help will be appreciated.

Here is the rundown.

The fuel pump parts arrived and we fitted it. We also changed spark plugs. Nothing. Completely dead. I checked the spark plug for spark (I don't have a tester so I held it against the crankcase while turning the engine and saw a spar in broad daylight so assume it is sufficient). Am I right or could it be a weak spark?

Bough some "quick start" and sprayed it into the carb while cranking. Nothing not even a cough or splutter.
I wondered if it could be timing that is out but the last time we used it before we got stuck it started almost first time and ran smoothly. I assume if it is timing it would not be that smooth. It was later that day that it did not restart (see previous entry for details). Thought to disconnect the auto cut off but I assume (possibly wrongly) that if the auto cut off was broken it would short out the spark? I have spark. Does anyone know if I am I right in that assumption?)

Not sure what to do next?

Any advice will be welcomed

Thanks for listening

Neil

 

[MikDee]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

If I were to guess, I'd say it sounds like a momentary "no spark" condition, especially if you tried starting spray with no results. Why? I don't know? there could be alot of reasons why there's no spark, but I would also think that intermittent spark would cause the motor to stall, or misfire ocassionally? Wait, maybe your starter is the culprit? I don't know how or why, but maybe it is momentarily shorted out, causing momentary loss of spark only while cranking? If the motor doesn't exhibit any other no spark symptoms?,,, Hmmm?

Or, possibly the starter solenoid is causing the problem? intermittent spark while cranking.

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hey everyone

So I finally took my boat to a professional to get it fixed because im going on holiday next week and he said I needed a new switch box he said it runs around $200 I hope hes not ripping me off and another $150 for labour and I should have it back next week sometime.

Thanks for all your help everyone

Neil

 

[neil25]

Re: 1995 Force 120 - Restart Problem

Hello again

Well the guy i took my boat to ordered the switchbox, replaced it and it still didnt fire so after testing it some more he finally took the flywheel off and found my problem, one of the magnets on the flywheel came off and destroyed my stator, tore it to shreds. Now Im going to gerogia on Sunday for a week at the lake which should be fun with a boat that doesnt start, The guy i sent the boat to said that he could get the stator sent to me overnight, however the flywheel is going to take about 2 weeks to get to me and that destroys my holiday. Do any of you know where i can get a new/used flywheel for my 1994 Force 120 hp before sunday, if so please let me know.

Thanks

Neil