Force 120hp, starting problem

[noshelter]

Took the boat out over the past weekend, started fine on Friday, got us to where we needed to go. Had it moored over night, went and fired it up Saturday morning around 10am, no problem. Went for a quick burn, then parked it. Later on in the day around 5pm, went to start it again and it wouldn't fire. It was cranking with no problem, but I could hear the crank / battery slowly losing power with every crank. Left it for the day. Tried again Sunday morning, it did fire, but then died (which is normal). But when I went back to fire it again right away, it wouldn't fire. It continued to crank, just not enough juice to fire it. We tried jumpstarting it with neutral batteries, just extras we had lying around. Eventually we got it jumpstarted off someone else's boat that had been running and was revving high while connected to mine.<br /><br />Once started, it runs perfect. No idling issues, max rpm is around 5500, I usually cruise at 4200-4500rpm.<br /><br />Once I got home, I brought the battery to an electric shop, they tested it and said it was fine, he actually asked me if I had charged it before bringing it down, and I hadn't. He also said the load test read good also, so that would eliminate the alternator?<br /><br />So my questions are, is there anything draining the battery that I don't know about? Since the engine is cranking, it's not the starter, is it?<br /><br />Am I just flooding it? Maybe I'm choking it too much?<br /><br />Could it be a fuel problem?<br /><br />What about the solenoid? <br /><br /><br />Thanks for all your help guys, this is an amazing board.<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

There are two sets of brushes in your starter, arranged in pairs. You're getting half-power. One isn't doing it's job. It's usually a loose screw on one of the grounded brushes.

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Willy, do you have a picture or schematic of this? Sounds pretty easy to figure out, are you pretty sure about this? Thanks for the quick reply,<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

The hardest part of taking a starter apart is getting it back together. Fishing line to hold the brushes in place works well. Once you put the cover over at least half of the brush cut the fishing line and pull it out. Use either WD40 or contact cleaner to clean it out. Do not use any oil inside the starter. Good luck<br />

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Thanks Euro, does it sound like this problem to you? Just looking for more (and more) opinions,<br /><br />Also, where and which screws would Willy be referring to in that picture?<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Bump, just wondering which screws I'd be looking at to see if they're loose, and need to be tightened. Any other opinions on what it may be? Thanks.<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Could be screw 3 or parts 7 and 10. My guess is carbon gooed up between the brushes and the brush springs. Get a can of WD 40 and a bunch of Qtips and clean the crap out of it. If there is something wrong it will usually be pretty obvious once you take it apart. If starter is fried I can give you a link to an aftermarket starter for around 125 bucks.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Sorry double posted

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Sounds like a plan Euro, I'll take a look at it and get back to you.<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Update<br /><br />Since the last post (having the battery checked, etc). I have gone and cleaned down, filed both the negative and positive poles of the battery, ensuring a solid connection.<br /><br />Today I took a look at the starter. I didn't take it apart as I'm not that confident in doing that, but what I did do was clean out, file down the connection leading to the starter (the big red wire, #18). Filed that on both ends, also cleaned around the screws and connecting poles on both ends (#7 and #10, the one leading to the starter, and the one attached to the battery pack or whatever it's called). I also cleaned off the main battery lead into the the pack, this one was a little corroded, but it was nothing a little filing and cleaning couldn't take care of.<br /><br />After doing all that, I went and fired it up and it fired with no problem. It actually sounded like an aggressive fire, not the long "crank til it turns over and fires" sound, but a loud quick turn over type of fire.<br /><br />Now I don't know if this solved it. Like I said, I never took apart the starter to look at the brushes. But as it had sat for over a week since the last start, I figured if it was something serious, it wouldn't start. Like before, it would turn over, but not have enough juice or kick to fire. I could be wrong though.<br /><br />Anyways, going to take it out to the lake the next nice day we get here and see what happens.<br /><br />Any other thoughts, opinions, places to check, look, etc?<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Tight clean connections and a good battery are the first things to do and check. That may have been enough. My starter was 37 years old before I took it apart. After I took it apart and cleaned it id bet I could do 20 mph on the motor with just the starter. <br /><br />If motor runs good without taking the starter apart go for it. If you can take the starter apart and put it back together again chances are you will get more power out of it once it is cleaned out. If it aint broke dont fix it. Cleaning may have been all it needed.

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Ya, that's what I was thinking too Euro. The cleaning alone may have been "just" enough to give it that extra kick it needed to fire. Like I said, it was already turning over with no problem, but just not enough to push it over the edge and fire it. So we'll see how this goes and go from there. I may go back and take a look at all the connections now, clean them out, file them, etc. It couldn't hurt.<br /><br /><br />SSS

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Update.

Took the boat out today, got it down to the launch, attempted to fire it up. I primed it, pushed the key in to choke and turned it over. It did turn over, and after a few cranks it did fire. It then died out (which I'm told is normal). It took a few more minutes for it to fire once again. I let it sit, thinking that I flooded it. After about 5 minutes, I went to fire it, and it fired.

It didn't fire as good as it had in the driveway. No idea why.

After firing it up, I took it for a rip up the lake and back. It showed no signs of poor performance. It ran great, idled nice and didn't bog down at all.

After running it for about a half hour I shut it down and fished for about an hour. After an hour, I went to fire it, and it wouldn't fire immediately. I thought it would have since it had just been run. It did eventually fire, but this was after about 5-7 minutes of trying everything, high idle to start, choking, etc.

So I don't think I'm in the clear just yet. Could it be the fuel pump? Maybe it's not getting fuel immediately?

Again, it's a 120hp Force.

Thanks everyone,


SSS

 

[noshelter]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Bump

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

NFA. I would post this as a new subject. Seems to me your new issue is not the starter but a motor that is flooding. You should make sure you post the model number along with the new post. After motor sits once it is warmed up you should not need to choke it at all. Some force motors use a standard choke and some use some kind of fuel enrichment system that if used incorrectly will flood the motor. I have fished for an hour before and just touched the key and the motor fires right up. Another thing is I would try and restart in high idle not on high RPM. If motor does not catch seems to me that you could easily flood it.

 

[dontpntpool]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

same problem, good battery connections checked, starter turns over very slow and doesnt disengage...just wears out the battery

Put 2 batteries in series the motor will fire right up, I am using a 1000amp blue top optima and a car battery...

Does anyone know why it would take more than 12volts to fire up?

 

[skibug]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

For those having a problem starting with a good battery or set of batteries: Your starter is simply loosing it's efective starting power. (Brushes wearing out etc...) Cleaning may help, but ultimately you will need a new starter. By trying to use a worn out starter, you are causing more amps to be drawn and causing more heat internally in the starter motor. You can feel the bottom of the starter and it is probably too hot to touch after trying to start your engine. This will ultimatly cause complete failure of the starter. Also, the shaft can become bent and can cause you to need more cranking amps to get the starter to turn. Hince why you might need an additional battery to get the starter to turn over.

For six months, I had to set my charger on my batteries the night before I planned to go out because if I didn't have a complete full charge on the batteries, my starter would not supply enough power to start the engine. It acted like a low battery. I finally had to replace my starter just 2 weeks ago and the difference in how it starts now with the same batteries as before is like night and day.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Force 120hp, starting problem

Put 2 batteries in series the motor will fire right up, I am using a 1000amp blue top optima and a car battery...

Does anyone know why it would take more than 12volts to fire up?

I would refrain from hooking your batteries in series to start your motor. That would be 24 volts which could fry out everything in your motor. What you want is for them to be in parallel which would be 12 volts. You can spent $150 for a new starter or you can take yours apart and try and clean it. Mine is 40 years old and back then they were built to last a lifetime. I seldom need it to spin more then 2 or 3 seconds to get the motor to start.