Water Softener problem.

[ST]

My wife been telling me that the water is no longer "soft" (I guess it is soft when you still feeling slippery even with multiple washing with soap).<br /><br />Not knowing what to do-all I did was to replenish the salt when it is low; no owners manual found; this unit came with the house we purchased earlier this year-I looked around the top of it; heard the timer motor running (this unit uses all mechanical plastic gears), but the time of the day stayed. So I guess, this unit doesn't advance to complete it's normal cycle. Does anyone know what's the common cause of this problem, before I go ahead and start dismantling the gear(s)? Thanks for the input!

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Brand name ST?, or post a picture!

 

[KRS]

Re: Water Softener problem.

The salt in the unit absorbs the minerals from the water, the build-up is flushed off of the salt on a regular basis using fresh water. As the salt depletes, it's ability to absorb minerals is reduced, and if the flush cycle isn't working.... either could be the problem.

 

[ST]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Thanks for the replies, Boomyal and azfyrfyter63! <br />Now that you're asking for photos-Boomyal-, I didn't have any; the unit is in Arizona and I am in California! But, this got me into digging deeper into my files, and...BINGO; I found some infos on that unit!-I scanned 2 pages of it; hope that's good enough. <br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />Still wondering what's wrong with it....

 

[ST]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Don't know why only 1 pic shows; here's the other one...<br /><br />

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

ST, that is a Fleck 5600 control valve. It is a very common generic unit.(in other words, cheap) One of two things have happened.<br /><br />Either the timer motor is shot or a locating/anchoring nib for the motor drive gear has broken off of the case causing the motor drive gear to break contact with the rest of the valves gear stack.(drives the clock as well as the regeneration cycle)<br /><br />Which would I guess? ??????? can't. The drive motor can tick but not drive.<br /><br />You can remove the motor, leaving it plugged in and grab the gear with a pair of plyers. Very slowly the motor should begin to revolve around the the drive gear. It moves slow so be patient. If that seems to work then you really ought to get a complete new control assembly.<br /><br />You could get lucky and find a vendor to get the correct part but fleck made many variations of that valve to sell to private label water softener assemblers. The drive motors would all be the same but you need to make sure it is for a softener, not a filter.

 

[ST]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Boomyal,<br />you're right; it looks cheap; as I mentioned earlier, the gears were made of all plastic; and your explanation about possibly broken nib or gear does make sense. <br /><br />But upon reading further in the materials that I found, the control valve assembly has a 5 year warranty on it-unit is only 1 year old- So, instead of me monkeying around on those plastic gears; I'll just call them, and return the assembly for an exchange! This water softener think is new to me, but this problem has helped me to understand a little of how it works; and thank you for taking the time to contribute.

 

[JB]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Disagree with AFF's description of how softeners work.<br /><br />The "softening" is done by resins in the tank that adsorb (not absorb) selected elements from the water, usually iron and/or calcium. When the resins become saturated they are cleaned by back flushing them with brine. That is what the salt is for.<br /><br />The timer is set to back flush after a certain time, depending on the amount of water it would take to "use up" the adsorption ability of the resins and the amount of water the installer calculated would be used by the home.<br /><br />There should be an ability to manually start a regeneration back flush cycle. If you do that daily until you have the timer fixed the wife will have the "slimy" water back and you wont get yellow/brown stains on all of your appliances.<br /><br />Good luck.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Originally posted by JB:<br /> There should be an ability to manually start a regeneration back flush cycle. If you do that daily until you have the timer fixed the wife will have the "slimy" water back and you wont get yellow/brown stains on all of your appliances.<br /><br />Good luck.

JB, he could manually intitiate the regeneration cycle but the same motor that controls the timer is used to drive the valve thru the 4 different positions of the regeneration cycle. <br /><br />If he got the manual out and looked up each positions' time requirement, he could manually move the valve into each of the positions and wait the proper amount of time for each one.<br /><br />and ps, soft water is not slimey. It is the human body that is slimey due to a reaction of the high alkaline soap with the surface skin protien, in the absence of the sticky drying curd that is formed when soap pulls dissolved calcium (rock) out of the water to form an insoluable compound of soap and limestone.

 

[JB]

Re: Water Softener problem.

I agree that softened water is not "slimy". I was making a joke about ST calling it "slippery".

 

[KRS]

Re: Water Softener problem.

JB is right, my description was wrong, the salt is used to flush the media, not fresh water flushing the salt.<br /><br />Thanks for the correction, and my apologies.

 

[ST]

Re: Water Softener problem.

JB,<br />I knew that you were only joking, since you have the word encased with "slimy"; and thanks again Boomyal for your elaborate explanation of why soft water feels "slippery"; yeah.... I "got" it!<br /> <br />By the way JB, if you were to continue your signature, if I may guess the next quote would be: ....Sailors' delight?

 

[Realgun]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Actually the resin adsorbs the calcium ions Ca+ out of the water and holds them. When the media gets saturated you use the salty water to replenish the Sodium Na+ or Potasium Ka+ ions in the resin. The salt water does not go through your pipes.<br /><br />Ya the skin feels slippery. I kinda like the hard water better. But the wife had to spend $3000 on the softener.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Water Softener problem.

For some reason no one in my house likes soft water. I keep the softener running regardless so that the hot water coil (tankless heater) does not scale up with calcium. Other pluses are less soap useage in the laundry and cleaner laundry, cleaner dishes in the dish washer, no water spots on the cars (one hose is soft water the the other is hard), no crusty stuff builing up on faucets and toilet parts, etc.<br /><br />Soft water is easier on your plumbing in general and I like the slippery clean sensation. With hard water I feel like there is something sticky all over me.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Originally posted by Mark42:<br /> With hard water I feel like there is something sticky all over me.

Guess what Mark, that is exactly what is happening. Soap will pull the disolved ions of calcium out of solution and into it's solid form all mixed up with soap. This mixture is an insoluable sticky curd that plasters your body, sticks in your hair, sheets, cloths etc.<br /><br />Also because calcium and soap are highly alkaline, that curd fosters increased bacteria activity on your otherwise acidic skin. That increased bacteria often causes increased itching to sometimes worse depending on ones level of sensitivity.<br /><br />Water, minus the dissolved calcium, has lower surface tension and is therefore a better solvent. It washes the soap off of your skin and out of you clothes more rapidly and more completely. Razor blades also last longer when using soft water. Not only does the curd accelerate the deterioration of the blade, hard water does not wet and soften the hair as effectively.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Ok, since we've got the expertise here please answer the followig:<br /><br />Is it a myth that water softeners increase (by any amount) the sodium level of the water that runs through them?<br /><br />Btw, even though I'm not an engineer, I love the design of my water softener. The only mechanical/ electrical part is the timer that initiates the refresh cycle. Everything else is hydraulicly controlled by cams that turn based on the amount of water that runs through the softener. So you can initate a complete refresh cycle without any electricity whatsoever to the softener. <br /><br />Only issue is that it doesn't have a 'refresh' sensor. You preset the amount of salt used during a recycle and the number of days between recycles. Works fine if you've got fairly constant levels of water usage, but probably not ideal if you've got alot of variation in water usage. On the other hand, one less thing that can break...

 

[Mark42]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Because the salt is only used to clean the softening element, the answer should be "no, it does not increase salt in the drinking water". But I suppose that after the unit regenerates, there is a trace amount of salt left in the filter element from the flush that will come out with the first gallon or two.<br /><br />For all practical and health purposes, the answer is "no".

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

LakeLivin, here is the total skinny on salt in watersoftening. The process is technically called Sodium Ion Exchange. The Ion exchange resin holds onto the free floating sodium ions as the brine is run thru the resin bed. In the process, ions of calcium, magnesium, manganese and iron are released from the resin into the brine flow. <br /><br />When the brining is complete (all calculated) the system goes thru both a counter current and co-current flush to rid the resin bed of excess salt brine and the released mineral ions.<br /><br />As your service water proceeds thru that resin bed, the retained sodium ions are are 'kicked' off the resin beads, by the mineral ions, and end up downstream in the water supply.<br /><br />Sooooooooooo, yes, water softening imparts sodium only into your water. However it is a small amount and it is calcuable, depending on the original hardness of your water.<br /><br />In moderately hard water, the amount of sodium only in two quarts of water is about equal to the sodium content in one slice of unbuttered bread. About 180 mgs. It is generally considered, by the medical community, to be an inconsequential amount, even for the sodium sensitive ones.

 

[lakelivin]

Re: Water Softener problem.

Thanks Boom, two follow-up questions:<br /><br />1) Anyone know if water filters (like a Pur or Brita pitcher) remove sodium from water?<br /><br />No sodium problems here, just want to be able to provide informed answers to those who believe that softeners add sodium from the water.<br /><br />2) Every year the company that installed my water softener comes out to 'clean/ condition' the resin bed (for $50 or $60 bucks). Is this really necessary and what chemicals do they use in this process? Is this something I could do myself by running the softener through a cleaning cycle using something different than the regular brine solution? Btw, I've got an Autotrol Series 155 model.<br /><br />thanks.

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Water Softener problem.

LakeLivin, to answer both parts of part 2 I'd have to know what the character of your water is. Private well with iron or just municipal hard water?<br /><br />Part 1. Specifically the Britta. (Am not familiar with Pur). The Britta cartridges contain carbon as well as some anion and cation resins. Those are simply resins that work on both sides of the + - ion charges. They do have the capability to reduce the Total Dissolved Solid level of the water. TDS is a measurement of everything (almost) dissolved in water. Therefore, sodium would be reduced as well. No other common inline filter will touch dissolved solid. The Britta pour thru is a pain in the behind though.<br /><br />Notice I said 'reduce'. If you want to virtually eliminate sodium (and all TDS) you need to use reverse osmosis. (available at home depot for $160.00)