President Announces Exit Strategy

jtexas

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Actually I should thank you for pointing out that keeping troops in Iraq doesn't mean not ending the war. Somehow I missed that in all the excitement. Duh!!!
 

JB

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Go read the History of India from about 1945 to 1949.

Indians hated the British and wanted them to leave, but they hated each other (Muslims and Hindus) even more.

The British set them up a government and turned the country over to them, then pulled out.

How many millions of Indian citizens were then murdered by other Indian citizens? The British didn't start that war, they just created a vacuum by getting out.

Anybody see a parallel there?
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Yes, we should follow Britains's example & pull out.....JK
 

rodbolt

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

better they get on with killing each other and leave us alone. all they gotta do is keep the oil taps on.
but they are gonna continue killing each other with or with out our troops getting killed or our economic future being drained.
but if they are losing 100 a day eventually attrition will work.
 

jtexas

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

JB I saw that documentary about Ghandi, the one with Ben Kingsley, and, since Hollywood only ever tells the truth, all I can say is, at least the British weren't killing them anymore!

But seriously, it's not that far-fetched an analogy...still, I'm not sure I take the same lesson from it as you...
 

rodbolt

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

the brits never killed any indians in India.
how dare you suggest such a bloody thing?
 

PW2

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Ok, JB.

How long should the Brits have stayed getting their own soldiers killed while the Muslims and the Hindus fought them and each other?

That is precisely why we need some sort of a timeline. We need to make sure that their new government recognizes the need for a coalition government of some sort. So far they have been unwilling to do so, and there is nothing our military can do, save for leaving, to either make them willing, or to make the Sunnis like the Shiites, or vice versa.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Perhaps you should stop calling for the troops to come home and call for the president to let the military take off the gloves and go kick some a$$.
Certainly that's what has been my hope.
The administration's vision to wage war against terrorism is one I back 100%.
However I've learned that they lack the competence to actually do it.
 

QC

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Skinnywater is all over this, although I would not be as critical. I am OK as long as we (normal humans) don't get mad enough to open the doors for the Dems to mess it up even worse . . . I support W completely for two reasons:

1) He gets it and

2) He is not the other guys (and gals) who don't . . .
 

JB

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

I don't draw any particular lesson from what happened in India.

I don't claim to know what would have happened if the Brits had stayed to "maintain order". I do think it would have resulted in less bloodshed.

One thing worth noting is that the country was partitioned. . .The Muslims got Pakistan and the Hindi got India. Then things more or less settled, but they still hate each other and start shooting at the drop of an insult.

Don't know if partition would work in Iraq, because each faction wants at least a share of the oil, but I do think that option needs to be on the table.
 

Vlad D Impeller

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

"I don't draw any particular lesson from what happened in India."

Well I do, the British Govt' was lead into India by greedy corporate interests, namely the British East India Company.
Push comes to shove and resulted into the disruption of the status quo, in other words we tampered with their system of governing themselves.
Therefore the British in their all-mighty wisdom of "we know best", ended up having to run a country many times its own size with over 400 different dialects and as many warlords.
A country which they knew very little about politically, nevermind the religious mix.
It does appear that the lessons from that segment of human history have not made any impression on the body of todays world politics.
 

PW2

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

quote> Don't know if partition would work in Iraq, because each faction wants at least a share of the oil, but I do think that option needs to be on the table.
Endquote>

By golly, we agree on something. I'm not sure what to do over there either, but I am convinced we need to exert as much pressure over there as possible to get them to quit fooling around and come up with a plan.
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Britain is/was the British Empire & made a boatload of money while occupying India.....
Pakistan & India still hate each other & are prone to border skirmishes & threats of nukes....
There will never be a successful partition or Iraq until they find a way to share the oil & the seaport.....
I say let 'em slug it out.....
Everyone hates us for our role already, so what's a little more killin' gonna hurt?......
Did I mention that Dubya is a dummy & doesn't get "it" at all & stole his favorite quote from Mel Gibson?........
This emoticon looks like him, btw :%......JK
 

txswinner

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Actually the British-India scenario does bear some resemblance to the present US-Iraq situation. British entry supported by the government was subversive at best with the people mislead of the need.

The real reason for entry of British troops was economic with the power of the British East India Company.

Similarity, American Oil Industry and the East India Co.

Similarity, government intervention under false pretense.

As it turned out, Gov. Lord Montbatten's leadership and the control of the British now serves as an example of total mismanagement in many of todays Undergraduate and Graduate level studies. These errors include failure to establish a goal, set measurements of obtainment, establishing and following short-term plans based on the goal, and finally recognizing the needs and probabilites of reaching the goal.

Similarities, I think these are evident here as in India, no plan or longterm goals were established, no method of measurement was developed and basically, as in India; we have what is known for lack of a better term, a major SNAFU.

Finally, Britian left India not because they wanted to leave, but because the cost of staying did not follow the traditional purposes of the British government and the cost overroad any reason to remain.

Similarity, to me it is clear.

Neat to see JB bring out the comparison, as I find it an intellectual process to make the comparison. Although I am sure all will not agree with my summation, trust my statements on facts as there is great study into why Lord Montbatten and the British got out and why the failure to establish a plan and set goals failed.
 

JB

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Nitpicky note: Mountbatten was Viceroy, not Gov.

Agree that they screwed it up pretty well. I think their biggest error might have been pulling out prematurely and leaving a power vacuum. Mountbatten had too much faith in the influence of Ghandi, who adamantly opposed the partition. Without the partition and with Ghandi dead, however, I think they would probably have had a major civil war.

India was also not burdened by the interference of neighboring states training and equipping the killing gangs.

Studying the transition of India the imperial colony to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh the independent, democratic nations actually gives me greater faith that we are doing the right thing. I do think that if each faction had its own soveriegn nation or even a soveriegn part of a federation that thing would be over sooner with more survivors.
 

POINTER94

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Note, I don't think you will find this type of insight or depth of discussion on most boards regardless of your position on the subject. Bravo!!
 

jtexas

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

I take one look at the gas pumps and firmly reject the notion that this war is about oil.
 

QC

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

I got a similar take from this thread. Why would the factions be opposed to partitioning due to the oil if we've already stolen it?
 

txswinner

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Re: President Announces Exit Strategy

Not oil itself, control of its availability or at least the appearance of its shortage.

Montbatten was as I recall a Viceroy but also held the title as last Governor of India, I could well be mistaken but gives me something to reseach.

My take on the pull out is timing is off less importance than we might consider. Some peoples of the world just fight to fight and I believe the two comparisons made here include just those types of people.

Before the last few years I did not consider myself as one who discriminated or felt ill because of anothers religion but am beginning to understand the thoughts behind religious war. The ones I have in mind do not have to be named to be evident.
 
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