WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

[cybor462]

Just bought my first boat. I am a newbie. I bought a ski boat a 1989
Forrester 160 Phathom with an OMC Cobra 2.3 (Ford) The dealer said
they rebuilt the outdrive and went over the boat to be 100%
operational. I paid much more than the boat is worth but I thought it
was a deal if the thing was 100%. It was sold AS-IS.
We had it out for an hour and all was well, sorta a get to know me
cruise. Freshwater. A few days later took it out for 3 hours and had
trouble with the stat sticking open. Also the boat just stopped moving
engine was running. Brought it back to the dealer and left it. Cost me
250.00 had to put on a new prop. Said the rubber bushing was shot as
the prop was old. We did not hit anything as we were in 20' minimum
fresh water. Well now it does not look like it is anywhere near 100%
The dealer had to order the stat. The holiday was here and we planned
on taking it out so the dealer said ok since the stat was stuck open.
We took it out and was out for about an hour and now the speedometer
quit, and the engine was running a bit funny so I decided to get it in.
On the way in the engine quit. I drifted into the dock. The engine
temp was 190* but it jumped there in a very short time as I was always
looking at the gauge. We got it out and brought it home. A few days
later decided to pull the stat as the dealer still did not have the stat yet and I wanted to see if I could use an automotive stat. I
pulled the stat and it was rusted open. I checked the oil (checked it
before each use and was good) but now it was greenish brown and had a
qt too much. It smells like gas. I am not sure but if it was water
wouldn't it seperate from the oil after sitting? This has stayed mixed
like it was cut with a solvent. I feel it is gas but how would it get
in it. I pulled the plugs and they look ok no fouling from water. (I
used to drag race and built my own engines so I am not lost around
engines. I admit the marine is a whole new world.) Since I know nothing
about marine systems the only way I know gas gets in the oil would be
rings but not in that amount. I will not trust the dealer and now I
need to fix it myself as I am way over budget on this with what I paid
for it. Can anyone offer any suggestions?

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL

Welcome to iboats!
I'm not an OMC guy, but I have to ask......
Does it smell like gas or not?
Identifing the mystery excess liquid will bring you much closer to a diagnosis.....
There are many here that are much more knowledgeble on things OMC, than I & you will get a better response if you amend your header to include "OMC"......JK

 

[superpop]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL

I can say "should have had a survey done" because I made the same mistake of buying a boat based on what the seller told me and not getting it surveyed. The problem with a boat that old is that while they may look perfect on the outside and some dealers know how to hide the bad stuff on the inside, there is no way to know the true condition without tearing into the boat as a thourough surveyer will. You have now learned a very expensive lesson that will probably continue to cost you money that you had not planned on spending. The best thing you can do now is learn the boat inside and out and get a good set of manuals. I was intimidated by the whole "Marine" aspect of the motor but really that fear is unfounded, if you are comfortable around car motors you will be fine, the only real differences are the electronics and fuel systems and they are not all that different. I would start out by replacing all fluids particularly in the drive, the OMC drives are obsolete and parts are getting hard to find so you want to treat the drive with kid gloves and make sure the lube is fresh. I would also inspect and replace all rubber on th boat, hoses, belts ect. These are the first things that will typically fail on a boat of this age if they have not been done in a while. If the prop rubber was rotten it is a good bet that the rest of the rubber is rotted as well. On my Volvo 4.3L i get some gas in the oil if I idle it for too long, not sure why but that was the explanation I got when I asked about gas getting in the oil. Once you get over the financial nightmare that boating can be at times, get out there and enjoy it.

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Thanks for the input.
Haut Medoc Yes it smells highly of fuel. I did add the OMC to the header as you suggested. Thanks for that tip.

Superpop well I gave up drag racing due to medical reasons and thought boating would be more of a relaxing therapy. I hear you about the lesson. Can't say I have not learned this way before. The cooling system and exhaust are much different. I do not know the ins and outs of them. I did get a manual (CLaymer) but I need to do some research on the concepts of these systems first. In the meantime I wanted to boat before it gets too cold so I thought I would ask for help with hopes of getting it fixed. I also changed the oil and filter right away. I ran the engine (with muffs) and there was no water discharge. I shut it down right away. It runs fine. No misses so my next step was to check compression. The oil already is soup green again. This has me groping for reasons. I also need to get the cooling system figured out too. Again any help would be apreciated. Thanks

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Stick around & be patient....
There are alot of members who will know about your specific set -up.....
One thing that would be helpful is if you can post the serial #......
Is this a raw water cooled system or a closed system?
Does it have something that looks like a radiator?....JK

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

First off you should try to find a real OMC manual...the one written by OMC. The Seloc manual would be my second choice and the Clymer would not be a choice.

You should pretty much assume that anything the dealer told you was false regarding checking this boat out to see if it was operational.

Water will not seperate from the oil very fast. If there is water in the oil it will pretty much make the oil into a brown milkshake looking mixture. Is that what it looks like?

As far as water getting into the oil, it can come from many sources including bad manifold/riser, bad head gasket or cracked block.

If there is fuel in the oil it is possible that you have a bad fuel pump. There should be a clear line that comes from te fuel pump to the carburator. If this line has fuel in it, the diaghram of the fuel pump has failed and is dumping gas into the carb. This line prevents gas from dumping fuel into the bilge and is a safety item on marine engines. It may also be possible that fuel would enter the engine through the back side of the fuel pump.


If it were my boat, I would try to start out with a clean slate on maintenance type items. I would:

1) Replace plugs, wires, points, rotor and distributor cap.

2) Pull the drive and check the u-joints and gimble bearing. Drain and replace drive oil. Read the OMC manual carefully on filling the drive. Cobra's are different than any other drive on how they are filled.

3) Replace the raw water pump.This is very easy on the cobra because it is mounted on the outside of the drive underneath the rear cover.

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

BruceB58 yes it is like a shake. I guess I can be certain there is water in the oil. I noticed that clear line(not so clear anymore) to the carb from the pump and it does seem to have fuel in it. I guess that is where I am getting the fuel smell in the oil. Finding the water entry will be first.
I can say the dealer did rebuild the drive as I waited a week to p/u the boat so he could finish it. When I first looked at it the outdrive was off. He said he put new gimble bearings,u joint,and bellows. I checked the drive oil and it looks foam free so I assume that end is ok.

I will say the boat takes on a fair amount of water when operating. When we are in a no wake zone and creeping like heading to the ramp it takes roughly 5 minutes to get there. We pull the boat out of the water and when I pull the plug a gallon of water comes out. This is after I ran the bilge pump right before coming in to the ramp to pump out the water. Sorta a test to see how much water we took on just while bringing it into the ramp.

Could this indicate part of my trouble, water either leaking form the riser or block? As I said I am not up on the systems for marine engines. Thanks

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Rebuilding the drive and putting on new u-joints, gimbal bearing and boot are two different things entirely.

You have so many things going on here it is hard to figure out where to start.

I would start with a compression test to see if you may have a head gasket problem. The fact that the engine seems to be overheating may have caused the head gasket to fail.

If the manifold/riser is a problem, it is not necessarily going to be dumping water into the bilge. Also, the fact that you have so much water in your oil and you didn't see any water in your cylinders(is that correct) makes me think it isn't the manifold/riser.

If it's neither of the previous two, you are going to have to pressure test your block.

You need to eventually run the engine on muffs to see if water is getting in because of the engine. You are going to have to look carefully while running to see if it happens then. If it doesn't you are going to have to put it in the water to see if it is coming from somewhere else. It is possible that the dealer didn't do a good job of putting the bellows on and it is leaking.

One more thing...a bilge pump will probably leave up to a gallon of water depending on its design and where it is mounted. A bilge pump can't get the last amount of water out.

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

bruce you are right about many things going on with it. You are correct I see no signs of water in the cyls. After I changed the oil and filter I did run the engine on muffs. I was not able to run it long because I did not see any exhaust coolant. It was going in garden hose on a medium pressure and water was coming out the small hole beneath the intake on the drive unit but I did not see any exit water. Did not seem as if it was getting into the engine or if it was it was not getting out. Screen looked open. Could it maybe be the pump in the outdrive?
I will check compression this weekend. What do you say would be a decent number? Is it the same as auto where you do not want to see more than 10% difference between cyls?
If the gauge is right can a temp of 190 cause a head gasket to go? Seems that that would not be enough heat to cause it unless there are other things like warped head or deck face.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

The water will exit the drive up near the transom housing. You can pull the hose off the thermostat that comes from the transom to see if you are getting water to your engine. You can also put your hand on the riser and see if it is getitng hot. At idle, it should be around 120 degrees or so.

I agree that 190 isn't hot enough to do any damage. I just am thinking that it got way over heated before you bought it which is causing the problem.

The compression numbers should be same as an auto. If you have a head gasket problem it will be lower in one cylinder or 2 adjacent cylinders.

You can take a quick look at the impeller at the outdrive. You take off the three screws holding the back cover of the drive and you will see the water pump housing. You can take that off to see its condition and if it is missing blades. You should be replacing it anyway. Also, remember never to run the engine without running water to the drive. Takes a few seconds to ruin the impeller.

Hopefully, when you change the impeller, your running hot problem will go away and you can concentrate on all your other problems.

One more question. Has this boat been in salt water?

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

When I ran it on muffs I had exhaust coming from there but no water. I need to read the book and see how this is supposed to work so I can start checking. So am I right in thinking the water is pumped through the engine exhaust to the transom exit point? I pulled the stat and replaced the housing without it as the dealer never got it for me yet. Is there some trick to burp this thing after you open it up to work on the cooling system?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

The water goes from the drive up to the thermostat housing. From there it will go through a hose to the exhaust manifold. In addition a hose runs to the engine circulating pump to allow it to be circulated through the engine if the thermostat is open.

Not sure what you mean by burping it. If you mean bleeding the air out, you don't have to do that.

You need to look at your impeller and go from there.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

I was just re-reading your first post. You mentioned the "stat" was stuck open. What symptoms dd you see that suggested this?

I take it the engine wasn't overheating at that time?

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

The first two times out it was fine. It was 140* The third time out the temp. never went above 120* I called the dealer as I thought the gauge was not working and I also had the prop go that time so I brought it back to him. He said it was the stat. He put a new prop on and said I could go out on the holiday since the stat was open and it would not be an issue. He had to order it. We took it out on Labor day and that is when this all happened. The temp. was never above 120. I kept an eye on it. After an hour or so and pulling my son skiing and tubing I noticed the engine running rough and I had a bad feeling so we headed in. The engine quit at that point and the temp was 190* We drifted to the ramp and I never restarted it after that until at home.

I checked compression today and 1=175psi 2=165psi 3 165 psi 4=175 psi. I would say that is ok. I checked the oil and it was at the proper level as I changed it. I hooked up the muffs and I ran it for 30 min. It has no stat in now as I am still waiting for it to come in. It ran fine smooth and had plenty of coolant flow out the exhaust and the engine never came over 120* After I ran it I shut it down and let it sit an hour and checked the oil and it is still clean and at the right level.
I called the dealer and he said it may be the flapper in the exhaust (not sure what he means) but he said if it stuck it could cause water in the oil coming off plane to quick and also launching at the ramp. What do you think?

 

[Boatin Bob]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Just so you know the flapper is in your exhaust pipe and is supposed to prevent water from coming back up through the exhaust and into the cylinders. Have a look at this link of an exploded view item # 81
3.0 Exhaust

 

[marunr]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Is the exhaust manifold and riser in good shape? The 2.3 should run about 170 to 175 degrees according to the owners manual.

You also need to read this website, including all of the links. It's important to know about the OMC Cobra.

http://www.hastings.org/~stuart/cobra/

You'll need to copy and paste the link.

 

[Don S]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

If you had water coming in the exhaust from a bad flapper, you would have a hydrolock, not water in your oil. If you launched the boat and it started ok, then NO water. Same after coming off plane. If it was still running, no water, if you could restart, no water.
IF you are getting water in your oil while running, and your engine is raw water cooled, then you could have a bad head gasket, a crack in the head or the block. That would leak water anytime there is water in the cooling system.
Any manifold leak, will leak only when the engine is off and let water sit on the piston. But again, when you try to start it would hydroloc. With your compression, I doubt there has ever been water in the cylinders. It would be easy to just pull the plugs and look for water.

 

[marunr]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

I re-checked and the t-stat should open at 160...mine has always run at 170 to 175 on the gauge (could be a little inaccurate). I've had mine for 18 years and it's always run at the same temp (except when I burned up the impellar!)

 

[bruceb58]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Your compression sounds fine.

So what is different this time when you ran it on the muffs and last time when the temp went high? Did you have the water turned up higher.

Did you notice any water leaking into the bilge from the engine?

 

[cybor462]

Re: WATER OR FUEL IN OIL (OMC COBRA)

Thanks all for all the help everyone. I am still not sure what has happened.
bruceb58,, I noticed water in the bilge before I started working on it this time. May still be left over from when I pulled the stat and water entered the bilge.
I asked this same question to the dealer about what may I have done wrong last time for no flow. He told me it has to run a bit to get the water flowing. Apparently I was soooo worried about cooking something I shut it down too quick last time. I did have the water flowing a little slower this time than last. Its hard to determine medium. We are on well water and our pump really flows. Last time I had the hose opened up half way but city water folks even at full open would not see half the flow we have so when I read the instructions on the muffs and they said half open/medium flow I decided to slow it down some this time.

Don S I agree with you. The only thing I can think is if the flap was stuck when the engine stalled and we drifted into the ramp and when I pulled the boat out it may have got in. The river was really active that day with the water level heaving a good foot or more. This boat sits real low in the stern so if the flap was stuck open I could see water getting in and then I did not start it for a week after so it gave the water plenty of time to drain through the rings into the crankcase. Only a guess on my part.
What do you all recommend? Since I did not see any water entry after 30 minutes of running should I check the flapper and take it to the water and try it? The stat was really rusted so I guess if the flapper is steel it could easliy be rusted as well.