starter or solenoid trouble?

[Lloyd345]

Hi,

I'd really appreciate your thoughts regarding the following problem with my 94' johnson 150. After a considerable investment with a local mechanic, the boat ran fine for a couple of weeks, then wouldn't start. Symptom: I turn the key, and hear a brief click (at the solenoid?), and that's it.

Here's what I've done and learned:

The battery is putting out 12 volts. I can measure 12 volts at the engine (between pos and the grounded negative from the battery). With the battery terminals connected to the battery and the key not turned, I measured 12 volts between the starter wire (yellow-red) where it connects to the solenoid and the positive from the battery. When I turned the key, I no longer measured voltage between the starter wire and the positive from the battery (is this supposed to happen and why?).

I replaced the ignition switch and checked the neutral switch. The original ignition switch seems defective (I detected continuity between the ignition switch wires (the two purple) whether the key was turned or not). I thought this would solve the problem. It didn't. The neutral switch was fine.

I'm not sure how to check to see whether the problem is with the solenoid, the starter, or something else.

Appreciate your help...

 

[JUSTINTIME]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

to test the solenoid is easy
u must discount 12v to test the coils
use an meter in ohms
go from the 2 little terminals u should have a low number
no put 12v back to the 2 terminals, which causes the stater solenoid to activate, now test the big terminals, u should have a low number

see if that worked

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Usually problems like you describe can be attributed to faulty connections. Even though they look good, REMOVE and clean all connections from the battery to the solenoid and to the starter. Also remove and clean the ground(-) cable. If this doesn't solve the problem, and it still won't crank, connect a battery jumper cable from the pos(+) of the battery directly to the lug on the side of the starter where the large cable is connected. If this doesn't prompt the starter into action, the starter or battery is probably bad. If it does, then the solenoid is bad or you still have a faulty connection somewhere.

 

[F_R]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

I don't have a wiring diagram for that new a motor, but it sounds to me like you are inventing your own invalid test. If I read you correctly you are finding 12v at the battery terminal to the small terminal. (True, that is normal, but useless information). When you turn the key to start there should be 12v at the small terminal. So, what that means is there is 12v on both of your test points or in other words there is no voltage difference. Voltmeters measure the voltage difference from one point to another.

In most cases, connect your meter - lead to ground and the + lead to whatever point you want to check the voltage. Checking "voltage drop" is another topic we better leave alone unless we want to get into more advanced theory.

If I didn't read your explanation correctly, Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Fishstick1962]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

First step should always be making sure the batt is fully charged, then clean (not check visually) all connections.
Also, remove and clean mounting surface of starter as this is the Ground point in most cases.
Then as Boatbouy said, connect a jumper cable from the hot side of batt to hot terminal on starter to see if it comes alive. If starter turns then look at the solenoid. Attach an Ohm meter to the two large lugs ( remove the large cables) you should get and OL on a digital meter. Make sure the small neg (ground) terminal has a good clean connection.
Then touch a jumper from the batt to the small Hot terminal, you should hear a click and get a reading of close to 0 ohms on the meter. If not...the solenoid is bad. If solenoid is good, start chasing the hot wire back to the source looking for breaks or shorts. I don't think starters usually just quit, they usually show some sign of wear such as dragging or hard starting prior to just Not turing at all. I would suspect the solenoid or dirty connections first. G-Luck Hope this helps.

 

[Lloyd345]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

First step should always be making sure the batt is fully charged, then clean (not check visually) all connections.
Also, remove and clean mounting surface of starter as this is the Ground point in most cases.
Then as Boatbouy said, connect a jumper cable from the hot side of batt to hot terminal on starter to see if it comes alive. If starter turns then look at the solenoid. Attach an Ohm meter to the two large lugs ( remove the large cables) you should get and OL on a digital meter. Make sure the small neg (ground) terminal has a good clean connection.
Then touch a jumper from the batt to the small Hot terminal, you should hear a click and get a reading of close to 0 ohms on the meter. If not...the solenoid is bad. If solenoid is good, start chasing the hot wire back to the source looking for breaks or shorts. I don't think starters usually just quit, they usually show some sign of wear such as dragging or hard starting prior to just Not turing at all. I would suspect the solenoid or dirty connections first. G-Luck Hope this helps.

 

[Lloyd345]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Thx for the info. Status: I checked the battery...it's good. I cleaned all the connections...they were clean. I ran battery cable from pos on battery to the starter (where the red from battery usually runs). Nothing happened when I touched the battery cable to the starter. Now, question...should I have disconnected the existing red cable which ran to the starter (the one from the battery). I did disconnect it at the battery. I assume it doesn't matter what I do with the jumper cable negative, but I did ground it at the battery and the starter ground location.

I'm not clear on some of the other directions. Could you clarify which the "two large lugs" are, as well as the "small neg terminal" and the "small hot terminal." Tx...Attach an Ohm meter to the two large lugs ( remove the large cables) you should get and OL on a digital meter. Make sure the small neg (ground) terminal has a good clean connection.
Then touch a jumper from the batt to the small Hot terminal, you should hear a click and get a reading of close to 0 ohms on the meter.

 

[mikesea]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

If your battery is full,and your ground wire from the battery is clean.making good contact,and you take a jumper from the positive of the battery to the positive on the starter and nothing happened,I have to assume something isbad with the starter,you can try to spin by hand or tap ,could be a dirty armature ,brush?.You bypassed everything.If the starter worked,and you put the key on and then jumped positive to the yel red wire the starter should spin. If it dont,you may have a bad solonoid,switch,or look for a red fuse in line.tucked on top of engine rear,or on the side.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Agree with mikesea. If you did what you said with no response from starter motor, there's a problem with it. Just to be sure the starter motor is gounded, strike the jumper cable from the pos(+) of the battery against a bare spot on the starter motor itself to see if you get an arc. Be careful doing this as you could ignite any gas fumes that have accumulated. This would be my way - quick and dirty. A more proper way would be to check the voltage from the pos. jumper cable to the starter case. Should be 12v.

 

[CharliePalmHarbor]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

ok heres a twist to this Q ...

when u run the + from the batt to the + on the starter >now the starter spins< but the starter clutch doesnt engage the fly wheel is just spins and spins in place ....

bad starter or selonoid ???

 

[Fishstick1962]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Lloyd35
If you connected the batt HOT directly to the starter and nothing happened, it sound to me like a bad starter. You by-passed the solenoid and put the juice right to it... it should have been spinning. I see in your post that you connected the NEG cable to the starter ground. Good move...Given the info at hand...I would replace the starter.

G-Luck!!

 

[Fishstick1962]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

The large and small lugs I refered to are on the solenoid. Sorry I wasn't too clear on that. But anyway...it sounds like you have a bad starter.

G-luck!

 

[Texasmark]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Beins you are going to have to remove your starter anyway (if you repair or replace it) run this test. But before you do, check for corrosion between the starter case and the engine block/mount where the starter gets it's ground.

Put the starter right across the battery. May take 2 people to hang onto it cause if it spins up, the starting torque is quite excessive (the case will try to spin and may attempt to spin out of your hands). Once is starts spinning, the torque subsides. If it's good it will really be humming once it kicks over.

If the case won't reach the negative terminal, use a large wrench or something with a lot of surface area to bridge the gap.

If it spins up right smartly, your problem is not your starter.

Answer to your question: On your initial test your starter was "offering" ground to the circuit you were measuring (through the starter) and you measured your supply voltage across the open contacts of the solenoid. Once you went to the START position, you must have energized the starting solenoid whereupon it supplied 12v to the starter. Now the 12v is across the starter, not the open contacts of the solenoid. Yes it is supposed to happen.

The brief click you heard at your solenoid was it energizing and it is supposed to do that.

You need roughly 150 amperes to turn your engine over so you need good connections that may not show up with your voltmeter.

Your solenoid contacts could be worn, brushes worn in the starter, or starter to engine interface corroded.

I have had solenoids act like everything was ok, but wouldn't deliver the current. Dismantling them revealed heavy pitting of the contacts which would measure on instruments, but was not enough surface area to pass 150 amps.

---------------------------------------------
For what it's worth I had a farm tractor that had the same problem just a couple of weeks ago. I ran significant tests on the system and nothing pointed to the solenoid.......but after substituting everything else in the circuit, the solenoid was the only thing left. Replacing the solenoid solved the problem. I opened it up and sure nuf had the problem I mentioned to you.
----------------------

Good luck,

Mark

 

[Lloyd345]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Now that we've established it's most likely the starter (appreciate the inputs), can you advise me on whether I should take on this [starter replacement] job, or should I leave it to a mechanic. I'd probably need to buy a manual (presumably a Johnson 150 engine manual, unless there's a simplified book out there for novices). Is there anything holding a charge (like a capacitor) I could get zapped by if I don't discharge it? What's the risk a novice could break something in the process or just not reassemble correctly? How big a job is this (time investment and difficulty)? Any helpful hints from those who've learned by trial and error would be great. Tx...

 

[CharliePalmHarbor]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

How big a job is this (time investment and difficulty)? Any helpful hints from those who've learned by trial and error would be great. Tx...

if it takes more then 15 minutes to replace ...

something is wrong .. easy job a novie can do ...

no cap to zap u .... (how cute)

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

No capacitors to zap you. To properly repair the starter, the armature needs to be cleaned up on a lathe. Also, the windings need to be checked, brushes replaced and re-soldered in, bearings/bushings replaced. All that's beyond me, but maybe not you. Any shop that rebuilds auto starters can do the work for you. Don't know the price, but I had the wife's auto starter rebuilt the other day and it cost $50 + $15 to remove/install.

EDIT: correction, it wasn't $65, it was $92.50 including all labor.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Charlie,
I don't know the answer to your question without more info. Irregardless, you need to start your own thread and give the pertinent info and ask the questions. If all start answering multiple questions here, one wouldn't know whether they apply to your problem or Lloyds.

 

[Lloyd345]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Let's assume the choice is either to hire a mechanic, or buy a new starter and install the new starter myself--again, I'm a novice, so if there are expensive mistakes I could make, maybe it's not worth it to do the work myself (the new starter is about $129 which is cheap compared to the cost of getting the boat to a mechanic and having them do the work). There may be a good "how to" book out there...thanks

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

Starter removel/installation is usually not too complicated. Get yourself a manual and follow the steps. You can get manuals at kencook.com, marineengine.com theoutboardwizard.bizhosting.com, maxrules.com, and iboats.com. Some of these sites have the OMC manual which is considered the best.

 

[Fl_Richard]

Re: starter or solenoid trouble?

I have the same motor. Starter replacement is super simple. Like they said 15 minutes including a few sips on a frosty beverage