Bravo vs. alpha

AdamB

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
251
Hey all, just bought a 26' Celebrity Andretti with a 454 Bravo One. I've always had alpha One models so what are some of the major differences?

The previous owner told me no impellor in the outdrive to have to change, and I see there doesn't appear to be a water pump on the motor, just a stainless steel cross over pipe.

He already filled the motor with antifreeze for the winter but I'm just thinking about next spring already LOL.
 

AdamB

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
251
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Oh, and it has a Holley 750 double pumper, but I don't think it's a marine version because the tubes just stick straight up. The pics I"ve seen have the tubes bent down (venturi tubes I think they are called) Anyhow, will post of pic when I can, but will probably end up having to buy a marine version of the carb... should I stick with Holley or what brand do you guys recommend.

Thanks, this is the fist BBC I've ever owned, never even had one in a car and I'm pretty excited about getting to know her 8)
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

The previous owner is correct. There is no raw water pump in the drive on any of the Bravo drives. They are also cone clutch compared to the dog clutch in the Alpha's, also no shift interrupt system.
There IS a raw water pump on your engine. Usually on stbd side of the engine down low and hard to get at. Some years had the fuel pump mounted on the raw water pump.
Hard to say exactly, not all years were the same, and you don't mention a year.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,079
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

AdamB said:
I see there doesn't appear to be a water pump on the motor, just a stainless steel cross over pipe.

That's where the Engine's recirculating Waterpump is Supposed to Be.........

You Still have a Raw Water Pump somewhere on that motor..........

It Sounds like somebody has been throwing some Trick Parts at that motor.........
 

AdamB

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
251
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

The boat is an 1989 Celebrity, but the 454 is a 1991 and I have no idea if the bravo drive is original or not. It looks like there is a raw water pump down on the starboard side (I see an extra pulley down there). Yeah, definitely no circulation water pump, and there is a MSD ignition and distributor.

This boat was a steal, although it does have some minor problems like the trim tabs only work 1 direction, the outdrive goes down but have to hit trailer button to lift it back up (even in regular trim area) etc. I'll have to get a bravo book and a 454 book.

NO shift cut out huh? I did notice there wasn't a shift cut out on the cable mechanism but thought the previous owner had just hacked it or something. I will hopefully get to test her out this season yet since warmer days are coming in PA this week.

Oh, there also seems to be a perko problem too, the batteries don't have enough power to crank the engine unless I stick a jumper from battery to starter. I think the perko switch is messin up...
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

If you can get some Mercruiser serial numbers of the engine and drive, then we can probably figure out what you have.
The outdrive trim is probably a problem with the trim limit switch on the drive (Same setup as the Alpha's) either defective or way out of adjustment.
Your starting problem doesn't have to be a Perko (Battery Switch) problem. Most likely a problem with corroded cable ends or loose battery cables on the batteries. Check the postive cables, but DO NOT forget to check the ground cables. They are just as neccessary as the positive, only then never get any respect !!!!!!
Here is a link to an online manual that will help you out. It's only for the drive and trim.

http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Servmanl/11/11covr5x.pdf
 

AdamB

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
251
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Thanks Don S. When I turn the key with out a jumper wire, I hear a loud electrical noise like something is drawing huge amps and the starter slams in but doesn't turn the engine. When I hook jump boxes and or start boxes to the batteries, same thing. When I hooked a jump box right to the starter it fired right up and started the motor.

We (previous owner and I) tookthe starter out, and checked it by itself. Spins great. Previous owner a mechanic and took the starter apart (which looked brand new) and reassembled and reinstalled. Same thing until we hooked the jumper right to it on the starter.

I will take both batteries out and charge them and replace. Both batteries were dead too, some something is drawing amps...
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
68
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

as far as the trim on the drive, the switch on the throttle should only raise it to the level mark. its idiot proof so you dont lift it completly out of the water. after that, you have to use the trailer switch.

as far as your starting problems.............

check the batteries first. charge them for 24 hours at low amps. if they show 10 to 12 volts charged, and the same thing happens..............check the oil and prey it doesnt look like chockolet milk.

put a socket on the bolt in the center of the ballancer and attach a pry bar. see if it will turn. if you cant, remove the plugs and try again. if it still wont turn.......attach a rode to it and put it next to your davenport in the anchor locker.

the number one reason for engine failure here in south florida is salt water intrusion. what happens is the risers or the heads leak water down the exhaust, which runs into the cylinders when the valves open. the water then rusts your cast iron rings to your cylinder walls.

hopefully it is your battery. if the battery checks out, try the pry bar. if the engine turns with a pry bar without too much trouble, check the starter motor.

when you have water intrusion, the symptoms mimic a bad battery and/or starter motor exactly. starter drags like battery is dying, especially when it gets hot. it might start ok cold, but when it heats up, it will start dragging. when it finally freezes, you can free it with liquid wrentch poured into the cylinders and let it sit for 24 hours.

the problem, however, to free your engine, the liquid wrentch basically dissolves what is left of your rusted rings and they drain into your oil pan. this is usually what a mechanic will do for someone when it happens, and then tell them they have a 30 day window to sell it before it freezes up again, and dont use it other than starting it for a buyer.

but first, check the battery. then the prybar. if they both check out, it has to be your starter, starter selodoid, or battery cables.

best way to detect it when your looking for a boat, is do a sea trial for atleast a good 30 minutes of continious running THEN check the oil. if it looks like milk shake, walk away, or make an offer knowing you will be replacing the engine. if they balk about a sea trial....buyer beware.

if the engine is a 1991, its time. sorry. 10 years is a long time for a salt water motor, and about average for a freshwater motor. 15 years is way past its bed time.

i hope it is just the batery. good luck.
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

if the engine is a 1991, its time. sorry. 10 years is a long time for a salt water motor, and about average for a freshwater motor. 15 years is way past its bed time.

So, you are saying that his engine is toast because it's over 10 years old? And that is why it won't crank and start with the boats batteries, switch and cables, yet it will starts fine when that system is bypassed (Jumped) .............. Man, am I sure glad you aren't troubleshooting my starting problem :%:%
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

I just dont understand what were doing wrong as are shortest engine life was 28 years in saltwater ?


Tommays
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
68
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

So, you are saying that his engine is toast because it's over 10 years old? And that is why it won't crank and start with the boats batteries, switch and cables, yet it will starts fine when that system is bypassed (Jumped) .............. Man, am I sure glad you aren't troubleshooting my starting problem
---------------------------------------------------------

no, im telling him to check the batteries, then check to see of the engine will turn over without too much resistance.

like i said above, salt water intrusion, or fresh water for that matter, will mimic a bad battery/starter problem. it will cause the starter to seem like it is dragging, or that you have week batteries.

the reason is because the rings are deteriorating and causing additional friction in the cylinder walls. when the engine gets hot and the parts expand, the alluminum pistons will expand more than the cast iron cylinder walls and thus increase the friction from the deteriorating rings and cause the engine to be harder to start.

and yes, at 15 years old, unless it has a closed cooling system, it is just as likely to be the problem as a bad starter or two bad batteries.

im not speaking rehtorically, or just guessing what could happen, i had the exact same problems with twin 454s on my donzi. they were only 8 years old and looked brand new on the outside. 8 to 10 years is about all your gona get from salt water motors unless they have a closed cooling system and the risers and manifolds are replaced every 3 ot 4 years. 15 years on a freshwater motor is a good life span, and water intrusion should not be rules out at this point.

the problem is the heads. they are cast iron, just like the risers, but the thickness of the metal between the exhaust ports and the water jackets on the heads is around 1/8 inch. they were never designed for marine applications. they were designed to have a rust inhibitor constantly flowing through them, antifreeze for example.

after 15 years, the manifolds might have been replaced a few times, but the heads have not. and the cast iron seperating the water from the exhaust in the manifolds and risers is THICKER than that in the heads.

like i said, check the batteries. then use a pry bar to check the engine. if it turns without too much resistance, ie, you should be able to turn it with the plugs in, and certianly with the plugs out if you cant get good leverage, then check the starter, starter selonoid, or battery cables.

the reason i suggest checking the starter last is because spending 200 plus dollars on a marine starter might be a waste of time on a 15 year old motor.

a dragging starter is the first symptom of water intruison. at 15 years old, i would have bought the boat with the understanding "i" would be replacing the engine during my ownership.

but thats just me. a mechanic.
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

If you re-read his posts, and my post to you, you will see that when he jumps directly to the starter it starts great.
If water intrusion was a problem, it would happen all the time.
 

blouderback

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 6, 2006
Messages
304
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Sounds like corroded battery cables. When he by-passes the battery cables by hooking up a jumper battery directly to the starter, it starts no problem. When he hooks up the same jumper battery to the boat battery, no starty.
 

AdamB

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
251
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Sorry, haven't logged onto this site in a while. The engine oil is fine and I did spin the engine with a socket before we took the starter off. All is well, the engine fired right up when I jumped to the starter.

Still working on the problem though....there's two batteries, replaced one with new one, and hit it with a 200 amp starter. Still will not turn over the engine, just makes a loud electrical type noise. I can hear the starter slam into it, but nothing else happens except the loud humming noise...
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,079
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Have you Inspected the Cables from the Batteries to the Starter,..??..??.....
How about the Ground Cables,..??..??.....

It Sounds like you're looking Everywhere, Except for Where the Problem Is......

The "loud electrical type noise" really Shouldn't be Too Hard to Find...............
 

RandyJ

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Messages
808
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Sounds like it may be bad solenoid or connections at starter. I've had that same noise in starter due to brushes worn out .... water had gotten in starter, corrosion on armature ate up the brushes, bad contact heated it up and everything had to go, got new starter and solved the problem.... If it were me I'd start at the battery and check every terminal and contact, make sure all are clean and tight.
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

Didn't read any of the previous replies did you RandyJ?
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Bravo vs. alpha

uh-huh, Ayuh

Anyone here speaky de engleesh ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
Top