Cha Vang shot dead in Wisconsin - Update

WillyBWright

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Remember in late 2004 when a Hmong imigrant named Chai Vang killed and wounded several hunters in Wisconsin's north woods? He's serving consecutive life terms in prison with no chance for release. I just now heard on TV news that a Hmong hunter named Cha Vang (no relation?) was found shot in Wisconsin's north woods. I'll post the story as soon as I find it. Nothing online yet. WEIRD!

Background: (copy/paste with h in front)ttp://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/11/24_williamsb_hmongshootingrea/

Update: A man was treated for a gunshot wound and is being questioned. Racial overtones are suspected.
 

Laddies

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Maybe the Viet Cong, the family was not to popular with them
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Thanks for that link. Not sure how significant, but Chai Vang was from Minnesota and that incident occurred in NW Wisconsin. This incident took place near Green Bay which is way over on the east side. Kiinda wiondering what these guys are shooting. Hunting this time of year mostly involves shotguns.

From the Green Bay Press Gazette:

Green Bay's Hmong community reacted with disbelief, shock and some worry Sunday to the possible murder of a local Hmong refugee in Marinette County.


Cha Vang, 30, was found dead Saturday morning in the Peshtigo Harbor Wildlife Area in Northeastern Wisconsin after his hunting party reported him missing the night before.


Yia Thao, president of the United Hmong Community Center, said Vang had just started taking English classes and also was learning how to hunt. He did not think Vang provoked anyone because he did not speak the language of his adopted country.


"I don't believe he could do any bad thing, because of the language," Thao said. "He was very aware of not knowing the language."


Dozens of family members and friends gathered Sunday afternoon at the home of Vang's wife, Pang Vue.


Vue, 25, said the family includes five children ranging in age from 3 to 11. She said they came to the U.S. two years ago. It was her husband's goal to provide a better life for his children than the one he had growing up in refugee camps in Southeast Asia, she said.


Marinette County authorities said Vang was a licensed hunter with three other people Friday hunting for small game. A man being questioned in Vang's death was also licensed to hunt and alone. Authorities declined to reveal whether the person of interest, James Nichols of Peshtigo, was hunting or if he had a weapon.


A bow and arrow deer hunt was also going on at the time, Laurel Steffes, a spokeswoman for the Marinette County Sheriff's department said.


The case comes two years after Hmong immigrant Chai Soua Vang, 38, of St. Paul, Minn., said he killed six white hunters and injured two others in self-defense. He claimed one of them fired a shot in his direction after they shouted racial epithets and cursed at him in northwestern Wisconsin in November 2004.


Chai Soua Vang, a former truck driver, is serving multiple life terms for their murders.


People in attendance at Green Bay Hmong Alliance Church in Green Bay were told of this weekend's death on Sunday morning, though many had heard about it the night before, said Nao Vang, 60.


The first thought in people's minds was the 2004 incident, he said.


"Some worry this could be retaliation," he said. "People are very concerned about that."


Thao said he heard the same thing but urged caution.


"I told them we have to listen to what is actually happening," he said.


Chao Vang, owner of Asian Food Market in Green Bay, said he's reserving judgment. Results of an autopsy are expected today.


"People don't think it's retaliation. They consider it an individual case," said Chao Vang, who said Vang is a common Hmong name and he was not related to Cha Vang.


The 2004 slayings exposed racial tension between the predominantly white northwoods and Hmong people who have immigrated to the Midwest.


Randy Stark, chief conservation warden for the state Department of Natural Resources, said they don't keep track of hunters by race, but he and other state wardens have recently noticed fewer Hmong hunters. He said many told him they were afraid of racism.


Stark said they are seeing more conflicts in general because of the shrinking amount of private land open for public hunting, which has caused confusion over available hunting land. Some people are also getting territorial over use of public land they may have hunted on for decades.
 

ricksrster

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

He didn't speak English? Do people in Wisconsin have to take a hunter safety course?
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Youngsters do. Not sure what the status is on adults this year. I think there's a grandfather clause and people over a certain age that wouldn't have had to take it back then don't have to take it now.
 

Mark42

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Is this guy a legal immigrant? When ever I see the words "adopted contry" that usually mean they are here illegally.
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

I believe he is a legal resident. Not sure about citizenship.

Autopsy results rule that the death is a homicide. His body was discovered partially concealed. Most other information including what killed him is being withheld pending further investigation.

In an interview, Nichols' fiance says James acted in self defense. After being shot once in each hand, the two scuffled and he pulled out his hunting knife and stabbed Vang. Nichols is being held on a parole violation. He has a felony conviction and was in posession of a firearm.

This is getting weirder by the day. Chai Vang claimed that he acted in self defense after being shot at. Nichols claims self defense after being shot. I would think that concealing the body would not bode well for his defense. Once in each hand also sounds bizarre. But wrong information has already been reported, so stay tuned.
 

aspeck

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

It just keeps getting wierder ...
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Way too early to say, but wouldn't it be the ultimate in Weirdosity if they both ended up in the same prison. :^
 

roscoe

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Hmmmm,
Been here over 2 years, pulling down $49,000 a year, TAX free, plus eligible for many social programs, and hasn't learned any of the language yet.

Very typical of the Hmong refugees. They are here as part of a deal with the Department of State. They, or their ancestors, that helped the US in Vietnam and Cambodia, were promised certain considerations for their help. After the war, most were driven into refugee camps, many in Thailand. Now they have been brought here. They are here legally.
There are many here in WI.
The State Department, as part of a grand social engineering experiment, decided to create pockets of refugees in relatively small, concentrated areas. They make up 8-13% or the population in many of the very rural-very white- small cities (20k-50k population) they were relocated to.

Well, many WILL not assimilate, even the children are self segregating - and starting gangs.

They are given $7000 a year, per person, tax free, for 6 or 7 years, and are allowed to earn money, tax free for a period of time. So they have been given quite some good opportunities.

Unfortunately, there have been some problems.
Many many landlord tenant disputes.
Like, how do you convince these people that starting a vegetable garden on the second floor of their duplex, is not a good idea. Soil was brought in, veggies planted, watered, ........ and ceilings collapsed into the ground floor.
I believe some were even killed when the second floor fell on them.


Recently, some have pooled their free money, and bought up businesses that were for sale.
Then they fired all the white employees and gave the jobs to their families.

So, yes, there are some problems, and they will probably get worse.

I'm sure the pinhead academia in the State department think they have done something great, and won't admit that their experiment has had any negative results.

We now have gangs, slums, frightened seniors, a bunch of ticked off rednecks, all because they concentrated such huge numbers of refugees in very small areas, and allowed them to live better than the working people of the area- at their expense, and allowing them to not assimilate.

And don't even get me started on the crimes I have seen them commit.
 
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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

As with all "new" ethnic groups to have settled into the United States, there will be social issues and animosity amonst the rest of the population where cultures clash. A good example is the deeply rooted hunting traditions many families share in the Midwest, where coincedently, most Hmongs also live. What you might not understand is that while you can probably trace back to when your great grandfather bought the land you hunt on now, these people have been doing this for their entire existence back in the jungles of Laos. Their hunting practices vary tremendously from the current practices here, whereas they will spread out further to hunt game. This conflicts upon private land and boundaries. Granted, a basic hunting course will educate them with these rules, but haven't we all found ourselves a little out of the map in pursuit of big game? Especially with ever changing property lines and insufficient sign postings.

I'm not really sure where you got your numbers from, but currently only about 2% of the Hmong population in WI are enrolled in the W-2 program. Link The purpose of this program is to help low income families find employment and become self-sufficient. In return, they get a grant for said amount per month, granted that they fulfill the requirements of their job duties. You make it seem like they recieve "free money" for doing nothing, which is pretty far from the truth. And once participants get a job, they obviously have to pay income taxes like the rest of us.

The link also states that the household median income level for Hmongs in WI is higher than any other states with a dominant Hmong population, with over 50% owning their own homes, and rising. Quite a difference from the "gangs" and living in "slums" that you so accurately portrayed.

The reason the State Dept. decided to relocate these new immigrants together is because it works. The Hmong people have very close family networks and willingly help each other out. The negative fallout to this method is the increased racial tensions for the rest of the population. But really, that is all subjective and people should learn to look past skin color and stereotypes. Meaning: the only negative aspect is your own inhibitions to change.

You talk about refusal to assimilate and the crime rate, but as a whole, Hmongs and asians in general have always placed well under the national average. Link

What I'm trying to get at is that it's a tragedy that yet another hunter has been killed. But why do we have to pick apart the person's ethnic background? If the victim was white, there probably wouldn't be that much of a media frenzy. But with the tragic events of two years ago still fresh on our mind, some people still feel the need to point out the unneccesary "facts" of a relatively fresh ethnic group that are here to avoid prosecution and genocide in their homeland. We're all here for the same reason: to live in freedom.
 

roscoe

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

I never said any thing about w-2, that is a state run welfare program.

The Department of State (Federal) runs the refugee program.
The $ numbers have been in numerous newspaper articles over the years and are reasonably accurate to my recollection, and used to be in a paper on the Department of State web site.

As far as the crimes I have eye witnessed, they happened, over and over again. And I have also witnessed these crimes being committed in plain site of State and Local law enforcement officers, which turned a blind eye. Presumably, on my part, because of instructions to do so.
The gang problems started almost 20 years ago, and have escalated greatly over the last 8-10 years.

Your assertions about home ownership are true, but that is only part of the population. Neighborhoods that were once, simply low income but stable neighborhoods, are rapidly rotting away.

A majority of these refugees have lived their entire lives in refugee camps.
Their education levels are low, many never really had to function in society.
Now they are relocated, given piles of money, tempted by all the legal and illegal "candies" of American society, and never taught about the rules or norms of the world they were thrown into.

For the older generations, homeownership is tops on their list, but for others, it is a fast a free careless lifestyle.

"point out the unneccesary "facts"

unneccesary?
Facts are facts.
Most people know nothing of the Hmong situation.
I have been living in it for 30 years.
The post was made to provide a little background of the situation.

If you noticed, I placed the blame for these problems on the Department of State, not the Hmong. They have proved themselves to be decent people, for the most part, but the situation they have been thrust into, was and is a bad mess. Failed social engineering.

And if you find the facts to be too offensive, you should hear the talk in the local coffee shops. I fear you would go into shock.
 
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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

roscoe said:
"point out the unneccesary "facts"

unneccesary?
Facts are facts.
Most people know nothing of the Hmong situation.
I have been living in it for 30 years.
The post was made to provide a little background of the situation.

"Unnecessary" because the thread addresses the murder of a hunter. Not the so-called "failed experiment" of the Hmong refugees. I realize that you're just trying to paint a clearer picture of the situation where you are, but also realize that your situation is not inclusive to other areas of the state. For example, Milwaukee enjoys a flourishing Hmong community, with many businesses and multiple community based non-profit organizations.

What I fear most about this unforunate event is that there might be a backlash of racial tensions, even if the victim was Hmong. Was the suspect racially motivated in his actions? Or was it self defense? And if so, how would the Hmong community react to a lesser charge other than homicide? Until the police releases their statements of the events that unfolded, the most we can do is speculate and post in forums like this one about the poor Hmong people and their shortcomings. I, for one, believe that we have more tact, and will see this more as an unfortunate event, instead of a history lesson in social and economical issues of the Hmongs.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

so are we supposed to write the secretary of state?
if its a state dept issue isnt it the secretaries responsibility to correct it ?
we have had the same issues with vietnmese crabbers here in the outer banks of NC.
but most of it was white jealousy over the fact the vietnamese wil actually work as a team and stay mostly sober doing it.
my average white commercial customer is back at the dock by 11 am and has the first refeshing beverage open at 10:30 am. my average vietnamese commercial customer brings the first load in about noon and the boat is reloaded with bait and suplies and is headed back out by 12:30.
so now the white guys claim they are catching up everything when its the white guys(mostly cousins) that dont wish to work as hard.

just an observation for about 18 years.
 

Fly Rod

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Let's build a big and long bard wire fence around wisconsin and keep them people isolated. 8) 8)
 

roscoe

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Oh before i forget, welcome to iboats Davey Jones.

Yes indeed, the Milwaukee Hmong community is doing well.
But a bit of a different situation.
I grew up in Milw, and have moved between there and north central WI a few times, so I have witnessed the situation in several cities.

A city of 600,000 with a metro area population of 1.5 million, made up of just about every nationality-ethnic-religious group there is. Versus a city of 30,000 people of which 98% are white 5th or 7th generation American born, most having had little exposure to dissimilar peoples.
The attitudes are different.
The cultures are different.
The ratio of Hmong population to the total population, is drastically different.


Will there be a backlash, maybe.
If the DA files murder charges, the suspect may be found not guilty, who knows what would happen then.
If the DA files lesser charges and gets a conviction, it still may not satisfy the masses.

Unfortunately, we have but one witness, the suspect.
Who knows how it started, why, and by who, but race did likely enter into the conflict at some point before the fatal stabbing.

The initial post addressed the killing of a hunter, with suspected racial overtones.

You will find that threads here in Dockside Chat, often take twists and turns, as this is a living breathing forum that evolves as discussions progress.

If we are only to talk about the fact that he was killed, then the discussion is over before it even starts. He was killed, end of thread.

Racial overtones can go both ways. Either the suspect or the victim, or both, may have been racially motivated, or allowed racially based thoughts to escalate the situation to its ultimate conclusion.


""I, for one, believe that we have more tact, and will see this more as an unfortunate event, instead of a history lesson in social and economical issues of the Hmongs.""

Well, I believe we must always look at the past and present conditions to evaluate what is happening in society. And we must look at the cause and effect of what our policies result in. The Department of State did something very different from the "norm" in this resettlement project, and it has had very different results.

When they started these high density resettlements, they talked about them, and how great the results would be.
But now, you have a hard time finding any information on the program at all.


Did it play into this particular incident? Hard to say from what we know of this case.

Hi rodbolt, glad to see you are still hanging around.
Sure, you can contact the State Department, doubt it will do any good though.
But we should be able to discuss the programs our elected officials have put into place, and the results of such programs. And at some point, people should be able to express their thoughts on the issues, without fear of being accused of racism or bigotry. Some programs work in some locations, and not in others. Programs have to be tailor fit to meet the conditions.
The bureaucrats that run these programs need to be aware of the outcomes, and be told not to repeat the same mistakes.

In this instance, the initial resettlements were done in relatively small numbers. The refugees were welcomed by the communities and things were going well. Education, workplace, language skills, social functions, etc; things were going pretty well. Basically, assimilation. The melting pot was working.

It was not until the high density program was started, that things went awry.
The communities couldn't handle the influx, and the self segregation started, then the problems developed.

Would it not be a good thing, that when we bring the next group of refugees from ? , that we develop a program that will work for them, and allow them to succeed in their new land?
 

Triton II

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Wow, this is a sad, sad situation. It'll be interesting to see whether this particular bureaucratic tinkering with social environments ever works, but I'm not holding my breath. Good luck...
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Re: Cha Vang, Hmong hunter shot dead in Wisconsin

Green Bay Press Gazette:
MARINETTE — Proseutors on Tuesday filed a murder charge against James Nichols, the Peshtigo man accused of killing Cha Vang on Jan. 5 in the Peshtigo Harbor Wildlife Area.

Vang, of Green Bay, died of multiple stab wounds and a shotgun blast to the head, neck and abdomen, according to Dr. Mark Witeck, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy.

Nichols, 28, made his initial appearance by video camera Tuesday afternoon, pictured on the screen wearing an orange jail uniform with both hands bandaged. During the nine-minute hearing, Marinette County Circuit Court Judge David Miron ordered Nichols be held in lieu of $500,000 and set his preliminary hearing for Feb. 14. Nichols faces charges of first-degree intentional homicide, being a felon in possession of a firearm and concealing a corpse.

In filing the 14-page criminal complaint, Marinette County District Attorney Brent DeBord for the first time began providing answers as to how a random meeting between two strangers in rural swampland ended with one man dead and the other wounded on both hands.

Vang was hunting with friends Jan. 5 and was reported missing after he failed to return to the car at the scheduled time. His body was found early Jan. 6 lying on his back in a small depression with a log across his chest. Leaves and other debris — including small sticks and dirt — covered parts of Vang's body, including his face, according to the criminal complaint filed Tuesday. Investigators found Vang's rifle nearby, partially hidden beneath some bark.

Witeck's reports revealed that Vang was stabbed five times in the front of the neck and once in the cheek. One of the knife wounds severed Vang's jugular vein. Pellet wounds from the shotgun were found on Vang's right arm, chest, neck, head and face, as well as causing damage to the carotid artery in the neck.

Vang's body is in St. Paul, Minn., where a traditional Hmong funeral is set to begin at noon Friday and continue through Monday morning, according to **** Campbell, a Door County resident acting as the family's spokesman.

"The family is, and it sounds trite, doing as well as can be expected," Campbell said Tuesday. "They're not doing real well. There is a tremendous amount of emotion.

"There's a lot of tears that are shed … a lot of open grieving that takes place," Campbell said. "Pang (Vang's widow) has been pretty strong overall.

"There is a woman who feels very much alone with five children to take care of and trying to figure out how she's going to handle that."

Marinette County Sheriff's deputies detained Nichols after he showed up at a Marinette hospital Jan. 5 with gunshot wounds to both hands. He was held on a probation hold — allegations of being a felon in possession of a firearm — until investigators and prosecutors could finish their work.

Nichols allegedly first told detectives that he was hunting in rural Athelstane and was shot by an unknown person. A short time later he allegedly asked the investigator if he could talk about "hypothetical things" and started asking about self-defense. Nichols later told investigators that he was hunting in the Peshtigo Harbor area and that they should be looking for someone in the area of Hipke Road, according to the criminal complaint.

When the detective asked if that person was dead, Nichols allegedly said he had "no choice" because the other person shot at him at point-blank range after he interfered with Nichols' hunting. Nichols told police that he was trying to tell the other hunter to go somewhere else when the other hunter started speaking gibberish and shot him in the hand. Nichols said he was shot a second time as he charged the other man. Nichols said he was on the man before a third shot was fired and the other hunter choked him and tried to gouge his eyes out, the complaint said.

Detectives at the hospital noted no injuries to Nichols eyes or neck, the complaint said.

In a third interview with investigators at the hospital, Nichols allegedly said he was hunting squirrels with a shotgun and had treed and killed a squirrel when he was approached by a Hmong hunter. Nichols said he told the man to go somewhere else. Nichols said the other hunter was 50 feet away and pointed a .22-caliber rifle at him and shot him in the right hand, the complaint said.

Nichols said the other man shouted "I'm going to kill you, I'm going to kill you," according to the complaint.

Nichols told investigators that he ran about 40 feet and hid behind a tree before firing a "wild shot" in the direction of the other hunter before being shot in the other hand, the complaint said.

Nichols said he saw the other man manipulating his rifle and opted to charge at the shooter and wrestled the gun away from him.

Nichols told detectives that he stabbed the other hunter twice in the neck and then covered the body and kicked the rifle under the bark, the complaint said.

After the incident, Nichols went to his Peshtigo home and called his fiancée, who came over and helped bandage his hands and clean up the blood. The woman, Dacia James, then took Nichols to a Menominee, Mich., storage locker, where Nichols exchanged his shotgun for an air rifle, the complaint said. The couple then stopped at James' mother's home before making their way to the hospital where staff alerted authorities to Nichols' wounds, as required by law.

Nichols allegedly told James' mother that a Hmong shot him twice and he retaliated and killed the person, the complaint said.

Authorities searched the Michigan storage locker and allegedly found a 12-gauge shotgun hidden behind some furniture, ammunition for the shotgun and a .22-caliber bolt action rifle and .22-caliber ammo. Investigators also found blood spots on the concrete both outside and inside the storage locker, the complaint said.

Detectives also recovered a blood-stained knife from the center console of James' car, the complaint said. James told detectives that Nichols asked her to take it out of his pocket before they went into the emergency room.

Talking to the media before Nichols' hearing Tuesday, James said she didn't consider the fact that she could be helping her fiancée hide evidence.

"It wasn't like he was exactly trying to hide it," James said. "He was just really, really scared because he was on parole and he's not supposed to have (a firearm).

"He was just terrified. Honestly, he didn't know what to do. He was just scared."

James said she was shocked when she found Nichols at his Peshtigo apartment. She helped bandage his wounds and cleaned blood from his face and the floor, according to the complaint.

"I really haven't talked to him a whole lot, but he just told me that he didn't mean it … that it wasn't on purpose," James said tearfully.

James said fear prompted Nichols to provide differing versions of the events.

"I can tell you it was fear," she said. "That's all I can really say on that is fear, because he's really honestly so terrified over all of this."

If convicted on all the charges, Nichols faces life in prison for the homicide charge, plus an additional 20 years for the two additional felonies. Nichols also faces additional years 19 years if convicted as a habitual criminal.

Nichols was on parole for an unrelated 1997 burglary conviction when he allegedly killed Vang.
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Cha Vang shot dead in Wisconsin - Update

Stopped and swapped his shotgun for a pellet gun. Now there was a real Rocket Scientist moment. Gives Rednecks a bad name. :(
 
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