fuel consumption question

Maps

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What is the average GPH (not MPG) consumption at cruise speed for a +-3000lbs 18-19' bowrider with V6 4.3L MPI 220HP ?
And would a V8 5.0L MPI 270hp run about the same ?

sorry if this post already exist
 

rickdb1boat

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Re: fuel consumption question

Figure about 10% of the total HP at wide open throttle. Of course, it will vary a bit depending on hull type...
 

tashasdaddy

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Re: fuel consumption question

it also varies, and the weather conditions, for maximum, effiency, you should go to wide open throttle, and then decrease to 7/8 or 3/4 throttle, doing this the timing stays up for the rpms, but the fuel cuts back just a bit. you may loose 2-3 mph, but it will be gained in effientcy.
 

Chris1956

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Re: fuel consumption question

Maps, Rick is correct about the ruoe of thumb. However, if you run that motor at WOT, it will likely blow up, and you gas usage rate will fall dramatically. d:)

I had a 19' BR with a carb 4.3LX 4BBL, Alpha 1. On an average trip (21'pitch Rapture Prop) I would use 12-15 gal in a 1/2 day fishing trip of 25-30 Miles. That was about 2 hours running time so 6-7 GPH was my experience.
 

Silvertip

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Re: fuel consumption question

As for the 4.3 vs 5.0 comparison you can look at fuel consumption a couple of ways. At WOT the 5.0 will use more fuel for the simple reason it has two more cylinders, 40 more cubic inches, and 50 more horsepower. It takes a certain amount of fuel to make a given amount of power --- its just plain thermodynamics. However, in a scenario where the 4.3 needs to run at WOT or very near it, the 5.0 may be loafing to do the same job so it would very likely burn less fuel. If you regularly pull water toys for example, you might be better off with the 5.0 as it would do the same job a 4.3 does but with much less throttle.
 

QC

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Re: fuel consumption question

These are electronic, so the timing and fuel rate will set correctly regradless of RPM etc. Here is a test of a 4.3 Mercruiser MPI in a Four Winns. Determining what is a good cruise speed is 100% conjecture IMHO. I believe that Merc says 3/4 throttle .. . but where's that? Technically it would 3/4 Fuel flow (3/4 "throttle" is 3/4 air, so hence 3/4 fuel rate too). Which based on this test would be 12 GPH and around 4300 RPM . . . The 270 would be higher. At the same speed, same boat, only slightly though as fuel rate IS horsepower and horsepower is speed, but at around 100 lbs more ya gotta lug that around . . .

4.3 MPI 19 Four Winns
 

Silvertip

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Re: fuel consumption question

Outdrive ratios and props come into play as well.
 

tashasdaddy

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Re: fuel consumption question

every boat, hull , engine is different, take my advice, then play around with it, you'll find where you need to be,
 

Boatist

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Re: fuel consumption question

V8 will always use more fuel than the V6. It weighs more and you have 2 more cylinders to feed fuel to. Have to have same fuel air ratio to prevent burning a Piston.

Still it not that much more because you will have a higher gear ratio or higher pitch prop.

Best Fuel mileage and cruise speed is Just after you reach a clean natural plane. This is with the engine trimed for the thrust to the stern or slightly up not trimed in with the thrust down. Trimed in mean the bow is forced down with more wetted surface and water drag.
 

Maps

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Re: fuel consumption question

Very interesting comments , thx everyone. I just wanted a rough Idea of fuel consumtion at cruise speed with a V6 and V8.
Alot of factors may vary but I guess from what people tell me 7 GPH is the average and slightly more with the V8. My bowrider has a V8 but I have not yet taken delivery so I was curious to know.

thx again
 

QC

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Re: fuel consumption question

FWIW the point I made about "cruise" speed being conjecture is supported by the fact that we have two very different opinions here. One is that "cruise" is where your best economy is, the other where your best compromise of speed and efficiency is. If you take a look at the test results I posted, indeed, 7 GPH is a good number. However, it can be even below 5 GPH if you run it like Boatist suggests. If you run it like Tashasdaddy or I suggested it is going to be from 10 -14 GPH which is roughly double. So ultimately this comes down to what YOU call cruise . . . How fast do you plan on running? Are you going to run the same speeds all of the time?

Also, for clarity, while the weight does absolutely come into this discussion, particularly with marine engines, the biggest difference between spark ignited, 4 cycle engine efficiency is output as compared to displacement. An 8.1 liter engine running at 100 horsepower is going to burn more fuel than a 3 liter engine at 100 horsepower, and the reason is that the throttle (air restricting butterfly thing) is more open on the smaller engine, which doesn't support the often held belief that the bigger engine will be loafing, so it will get better fuel economy . . . However, this actually may be true at some speeds and loads.

Due to all of the variables that we are throwing at the discussion, fuel efficiency is almost to the point of voodoo in the case of marine applications . . . Hull design, weight, electronic vs. mechanical fuel systems, 2 cycle vs. 4 cycle, diesel, drive systems, propellers, speed, engine displacement, 4 vs. 6 vs 8 cyl's, planing vs. displacement speeds, application (watersports, idling along, slow cruise, fast cruise, WOT), all of these factors skew the answers . . .

One thing that is clearer with marine applications than automotive, is fuel use at a given speed. There are no hills, so if the weight is the same and the propeller is turning the same speed (hence boat same speed), the power needed to turn that propeller is fixed, so the fuel consumption is somewhat fixed as well, sort of regardless of the engine, except for throttle position vs. displacement (more open is technically more efficient) and assuming modern electronic controls.

This is why I use test data from a decent source (whatever that is) to answer these questions. Everything else simply throws in too many variables. I would always subtract (or add) 10% to whatever those tests show too. 10% less top speed, 10% more fuel use. They are always lightly loaded, so owner's boats rarely run the same as those tested . . .
 

Maps

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Re: fuel consumption question

QC said:
So ultimately this comes down to what YOU call cruise . . . How fast do you plan on running? Are you going to run the same speeds all of the time?. . .
QC I think you said it all !
Hopefully in a fiew months when I get to know my boat I will be able to answer this. In the mean time I can do nothing more but to watch the snow melt here up North........... :(

Thx again
 

Silvertip

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Re: fuel consumption question

Here is some more data for you to chew on. Since I didn't have data for an I/O I chose a couple of Yamaha four stroke powered boats (Grady White 283 Release) and this data comes from the Yamaha web site. One boat is powered by a 250 HP and the other by a 225. As someone once said -- "to make this perfectly clear" I only want to point out that there are scenarios where the larger engine will burn less fuel than the smaller engine doing the same work. If you run WOT all the time, top speed is what you get and the big engine will burn more fuel. However, one of those scenarios is to compare apples to apples. The top speed on the 225 in this test was 49.8 MPH vs 52.9 for the big engine. If you drop the big engine back so its providing 49.8 MPH it is actually burning less fuel than the 225. 39.6 G/hr vs 37.7 for the big engine. At that rate, both engines are doing the same work pushing the same boat at the same speed. At 3500 RPM, ignoring speed at those RPM, obviously the big engine again burns more fuel -- 15.2 G/hr vs 12.6 G/hr. As was pointed out, there are a ton of variables to consider when making these comparisons. If one does not do any water toy towing, the smaller engine will be just fine. When it comes to making an engine work, it is throttle setting that determines fuel economy. A throttle that is more "open" does not translate to better efficiency and in fact it is very much the opposite. The more open the throttle is, the more fuel is being delivered to the engine. If it takes 3/4 throttle to tow a skier for example with a small engine, you can probably tow that same skier at half throttle with the big engine. Otherwise, if everything is equal except for the engine, no discussion is necessary -- the bigger engine will burn more fuel.
 

QC

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Re: fuel consumption question

Silvertip said:
A throttle that is more "open" does not translate to better efficiency and in fact it is very much the opposite.
I know this makes your head spin, but your statement is absolutely false. Very complicated, but the fact is one of the reasons a diesel is more efficient is because it has no throttle. Also, it is usually true (your statement) in a marine application as the only place that you operate at WOT is full speed. The confusing thing is that throttled 4 cycle engines deliver their best possible fuel efficiency at WOT. I didn't say WOT RPM, I said WOT.

The proof is in years of lower numeric gear ratios in Automotive applications, the goal is lower RPM for the same speed and load, which results in a wider open throttle. Same reason for a CVT . . . Anyway, the only reason I post this stuff is I think that the more info we have the smarter we all get. However, it is nowhere near that simple in Marine applications, primarily because we typically have no gears. Buuuuuut, a smaller engine at the same speed will have a slightly more open throttle and actually be operating at a more efficient point than it's bigger brother. It is also why a 302 CID Mustang gets better fuel economy than a 351 and a 429 in the same car, all have 8 cyls to lug around, but the average throttle position of the smaller engine is wider . . . Again wider throttle position compared to displacement. The 49.8 on the Grady is messed up because the 225 is giving all she has, at higher RPM. Yes, WOT, but not an efficient WOT . . . ;)
 

Boatist

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Re: fuel consumption question

You can not compare a diesel to a gas engine. Yes a diesel get full air flow all the time and has much higher compression. You inject more fuel for more power. The diesel everything is built heavier.

If yo ran a gas engine the same way you would burn a piston right away. With low fuel air ratio the tempature just get to high.

Carburated Gas engines the wider you open the Throttle the more fuel it will such in. The air fuel ratio stays basicly the same. When you open the throttle more air is sucked in thru the venture. This causes and lower air pressure and more fuel is sucked thru the high speed jets.

You can check any boat test where they print fuel MPG at different RPM and every one is the same. Best MPG is at idle speed. From there as you increase the throttle the fuel mileage goes down until the boat comes up on plane. When the boat comes up on plane the hull drag is reduced and the fuel mileage goes ways up but still less than at idle speed. Just after the boat reaches a clean plane the fuel mileage if pretty good. When the boat reaches plane the speed also increases a lot due to the reduced hull drag. From that point on an increase in throttle again reduces the MPG. AT WOT you will get the worst fuel mileage.

EFI or MPI works different but the results are the same. Reason is the fuel is still regulated to get proper air / Fuel ratio so you do not burn holes in your pistons.

EFI and MPI will get better fuel mileage and power than a carburated engine because the engine can be tuned on the fly for best fuel air ratio. A carburated engine will be set a little richer so it will not burn pistions wheather hot or cold.

Here just one sample where you can see the MPG at different RPMS for two boats. Click the link for performance data. Then check the MPG on the chart at 1000 rpms. Then look at other RPMS at the MPG. At 3000 rpms you will see both boat make a big jump in speed this is because the boat reached planing speed. The fuel mileage goes up there but not near as high as at idle. One of these mileage is still good a 4000 but the other has already started down.

It really does not matter what boat you check you will see the same pattern if it is a planing hull type.

http://www.powerboat-reports.com/sample/maxumlarson.html
 

QC

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Re: fuel consumption question

Boatist,

Your data makes total sense to me. However, you are equating hull efficiency with engine efficiency which is not correct. Hull efficiency is soooo important that it overrides the fact that throttled engines are least efficient at idle. Stare at this chart. It is basically applicable to all engines to a certain degree. Ignore the lean burn for this . . .

Picture1.JPG


What this means is that if you could run the engine in your examples at variable RPM (transmission), it could be even more efficient if you could run the engine at a lower RPM at the same power as the 3000 RPM you note. The throttle would theoretically be more open (higher load factor) and efficiency of the engine improves at that power setting, say it's 100 bhp there . . . I did not look at your data as I am sneaking this in at work, but I know that almost all tests of planing hulls show the best high speed MPG between 3000 and 3500 . . . No need to go with the burnt valve thing. I wasn't and haven't said that diesels and spark engines are the same, but some concepts do compare. Think about pulling a grade with your truck and boat combo. You operate it at full load for short bursts at less than full RPM . . . You can't do that with a boat, but I guarantee if you could that typical 3.5 MPG could be improved at the efficient planing speeds we are comparing sort of . . .

Sorry for the ramble, like I said, hurrying . . .
 

Silvertip

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Re: fuel consumption question

Maps -- here are the type of charts you need to study in order to decide which power plant you want. These charts represent two engines that differ by nearly a factor of two. Clearly, QC's theory that more throttle opening is more efficient is questionable. Idle speed as shown on the 115 chart whether looking at fuel flow rate (G/HR or MPG) is lowest. More throttle produces a higher burn rate and decreased economy regardless how fast you go.. How "you" elect to measure efficiency can be any of a number of measures. If Time is important, you run wide open as it gets you to your destination the quickest and the big engine does it best (its obviously much faster). If fuel consumption under the identical conditions is important, look at the two speeds I have shown in yellow. At around 30 MPH both engines are consuming identical amounts of fuel. But look at engine RPM. Not only is the big engine pushing 500 more pounds of weight, it turns far fewer rpm. Hence less throttle opening (loafing by comparison). The key here that in your use, the 4.3 will work just fine and over the course of the year will probably deliver the best fuel economy. However, if you spend a great deal of time towing water toys, or cruising with a fairly heavy load of people, the performance of the boat and in the end, fuel economy, will probably be better with the big engine. Yes -- these are outboards. But they are four strokes and the same principles apply to I/Os.
FuelEconomy.jpg
 

cjames

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Re: fuel consumption question

its a question of power and effeciency. it takes X amount of horsepower to move a given load at a given speed regardless of how many pistons are involved. I feel that a V8 engine under a moderate load will be more effecient than a 4cyl engine running at full rated load. A friend repowered a Bayliner Victoria from a 350V8 to a 454V8, and actually used LESS fuel at cruising speed. He didnt want to talk about fuel consumption at WOT.... and I dont blame him.
 

Silvertip

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Re: fuel consumption question

Exactly. However efficiency means different things to different people and at the end of the day, it depends on what you place your priorities on.
 

QC

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Re: fuel consumption question

Silvertip,

Why is this point you make true? "The key here that in your use, the 4.3 will work just fine and over the course of the year will probably deliver the best fuel economy." The reason that it is true is the same reason that I said it was true. It is because on average the 4.3's throttle will be more open to deliver the same horsepower output for cruising speed than the 5.7's will. It is a fact inherent to the Otto cycle engine (you know it as a gasoline engine). It is definitely not "QC's theory" . . . It was a guy named Otto's theory and he made it into a reality. There was this other dude fartin' around with engines at around the same time. His name was Rudolph Diesel. He looked over ole Otto's engine and said "Dude, like wow. Why would you put this big old barrier plate thing in the intake air piping to make your engine work harder to get that air in?" And ole Otto said "well dude, if I don't choke the air off dude, the air fuel ratio will be different at different loads and speeds and this fuel stuff here don't dig it man. If there is too much air it doesn't always light off." And Rudy said "well I got an idea, keep the fuel out of there and when you squirt it in it'll burn as long as the air is hot enough and you won't have to use that throttle gizmo you got there." To which Otto said, "But then you'd have to make the engine heavier dude so that it could have higher compression to get the air hot enough to light the fuel." And then ole Rudy said "Hey you know what, you're right. Why don't we use your throttled engine that gets poor fuel efficiency whenever the throttle is choking off air, for lighter, higher performance applications that care less about efficiency and we'll use my heavier unthrottled engine that gets inherently better efficiency because you don't choke off the air, in commercial applications where efficiency is more important? Deal?" And Otto said "Deal". And I guess it would've been really cool if they lived happily ever after and saw their inventions being argued about here on iboats, but they both died. Poor Rudy was penniless and he actually committed suicide.

The point of this long little true story (kinda)? Anytime you introduce a restriction in the intake air stream of any engine it is bad. It just so happens that Otto's design of sucking in the fuel and air together (homogeneous charge) requires that a fixed air/fuel ratio is employed (usually, but that is another long story). This is called a stoichiometric air to fuel ratio. To maintain a "stoic" air fuel ratio (neither lean nor rich, but perfect) it is necessary to restrict air at points other than full load (aka WOT regardless of the RPM). This "restriction" or throttle results in the engine actually working to get air past it. This little bit of extra work requires more fuel . . . hence poorer efficiency at partial throttle positions. Worst at idle, best at WOT. Again, not WOT RPM as defined in a marine engine, but WOT. Soooooooooo, the engine with a wider throttle for the same output will get better efficiency if all other things are equal except displacement (yes I know we have a V8 and a V6, you're just gonna have to trust me on this one, it is not about the extra two cylinders, it is about the displacement (size of the max gulp of unrestricted air it can get into all of it's cylinders). If you don't believe it, you'll have to find out where Ole Otto is buried and tell him he was all wrong. While you're at it tell Rudy, but you might also mention that his silly idea of getting rid of a throttle was really stupid cause it doesn't matter that you have a restriction in the intake at part load. I'd prefer you tell the guy it was a good idea as he actually thought he was a failure.

Again, the only reason I keep coming back to this discussion is it is not fair to others to distribute incorrect info, which frankly, I am not. You can look it up as they say. I also know it is confusing, and I have spent my almost 30 year career in the engine business trying to make sense of it . . . ;)
 
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