Classic timing issue but its not.

[f_inscreenname]

I been having a issue that acts like a classic timing issue. You know when you try to start your motor after you just shut it off and it acts like you have a dead battery.
I was out today testing right and left hand props. After swapping out a prop that was a right instead of a left or vice versa I would have to adjust the zinc tab (the little fin that hangs down in front of the prop). Make a quick run of a couple miles. Come to a stop (a nice normal stop) let motor run for 15/20 seconds and shut it down. Raise outdrive and adjust tab (3 or 4 minutes), drop drive and go to start it……… The starter tries to the point that it will almost melts the cover off the starter cables but just cant get the motor to turn over. Let it sit for a little while (10 minutes) and it kicks over in less the full revolution of the starters bezel.
The timing is right on. No water in the oil (thank God) so I don’t think it hydro locking. Its just like a timing issue and I have advanced, retarded and had the timing right on and it still does the same thing.
Any ideas?
For those who don’t know some background.
Just built (1986 MIE340 ) 454 big block. Not much more performance then stock but does have 9.33 to 1 compression and I am using a stock Merc starter. All new cables. Today is the first day I have had it out for more then a quick ride since the motor was installed and I don’t think I ever turned it off and tried to restart it while out. Like I said I have tried the timing back and forth and exactly where it should be and it still does it I am kind of stumped.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

It sounds like your starter.

Have had similar experience with starters in 454s in truck applications where they would do that when they were hot but worked perfectly when cool. I have never come across that situation in a marine environment and would not think that it would be nearly as high a temperature.

Just throwing this out for something for you to chew on.

 

[Don S]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Lot of extra weight in the back of the boat.
Next time it happens, pull the plugs and crank the engine over. Bet you are getting water in the exhaust (and a couple of cylinders). Between the extra weight of the engine, and you on the back leaning over the back, and low exhaust to begin with........... Well, I think you see my point.

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Lot of extra weight in the back of the boat.
Next time it happens, pull the plugs and crank the engine over. Bet you are getting water in the exhaust (and a couple of cylinders). Between the extra weight of the engine, and you on the back leaning over the back, and low exhaust to begin with........... Well, I think you see my point.

 

[Don S]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Can I take that as a "Hmmmmm, I'll have to check" type post

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Don,

Why would he be able to start the engine 10 minutes later if he had water in there?

 

[Don S]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Don,

Why would he be able to start the engine 10 minutes later if he had water in there?

Maybe the water leaks past those brand new rings that aren't completely seated in yet.

That, and it was only a possibility, not the ONLY reason.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Maybe the water leaks past those brand new rings that aren't completely seated in yet.

He's claiming no water in the oil!

F,

How old is your starter? Are all cables on tight including the negative cable connection at the block?

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Don,

Why would he be able to start the engine 10 minutes later if he had water in there?

And do you think it pushes out instead of going past the rings and into the pan? I still ran the boat for another 30 / 45 minutes after the last time it happened. I checked the oil before I covered the boat up tonight and it was as clean as when I changed it on Thursday.

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

He's claiming no water in the oil!

F,

How old is your starter? Are all cables on tight including the negative cable connection at the block?

No water in oil and starter is a couple years old.

 

[jastacey]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Sounds like a heat soaked starter, had the same issue in a pick-up when we put headers in it, we put a heat shield around the starter and it lessend the problem, had to go to a differant starter. Been really enjoying your story on this rebuild!!!!!

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Thanks. I try to share my experiences just in case someone can use something from it. A lot of folks think they cant do things but once they read that I did it, it tends to give them a little inspiration to try it. Sometimes it works out and other time it doesn't but at least they will know. If anything watching me fumble through it is at least good for entertainment.

So I guess the conclusion is that my starter is gimping? Would there be any other reason this would be happening? Like the Thunderbolt IV box gets to hot and is keeping the ignition to far advanced or something off the wall like that? I will take any ideas just in case. It doesn't hurt to look.

 

[clint s]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

That is a classic description of heat soak I have been fighting it on my Firebird for years. When you shut down the engine water stops circulating and you engine stays hot. The heat soaks into evrerything around it to cool off. If you have a starter that is starting to go out or a bad ground it will make the issue worse. The starter solenoid is getting warm and not allowing the starter to draw the amperage so it stopping at your cables and they are getting hot. Replace the starter and ground the case if that doesn't work remote the solenoid and wrap the starter with a heat shield. My not be it , but sounds like it. Just my.02

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

That is a classic description of heat soak I have been fighting it on my Firebird for years. When you shut down the engine water stops circulating and you engine stays hot. The heat soaks into evrerything around it to cool off. If you have a starter that is starting to go out or a bad ground it will make the issue worse. The starter solenoid is getting warm and not allowing the starter to draw the amperage so it stopping at your cables and they are getting hot. Replace the starter and ground the case if that doesn't work remote the solenoid and wrap the starter with a heat shield. My not be it , but sounds like it. Just my.02

That was a very common issue with some of the bigger and older v-8's, heat can lock up a starter motor quite easly, how's your cooling system doing?

 

[flashback]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

On my old 350, I had a bad solenoid and it caused the same effect. replaced the solenoid which was bolted to the exhaust mani on the starboard side and bingo. no more problems...thought that was kind of a dumb place to put it in the first place, but I guess there is a reason...

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Cooling system is cool. 160* most of the time 180* if I run it hard and then come to a stop but it goes right back down.

The solinoid..... Thats a idea. A couple weeks ago I went to start the boat for the first time that day and I got the "clicking sound". I then checked to make sure everything was tight (grabbing cables by hand) for about 10 seconds and then hit the key again and it started right up.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Pick yourself up a High-Torque Mini Starter,+ Don't Look Back................

 

[f_inscreenname]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Is your answer to everything a new High-Torque Mini Starter??

I am thinking it may be time anyway.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Classic timing issue but its not.

Is your answer to everything a new High-Torque Mini Starter??

I am thinking it may be time anyway.

You mean you don't already have a High-Torque Mini Starter...Tsk Tsk!!