motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

[rebuilt]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Seems to me that by his own admission, he failed to check the VRO alarm prior to putting fire to this motor. Also seems to me, that with the above fact having been established, that this shop is 110% liable for the whole rebuild. (That's probably why one shop owner in a previous post made it policy to replace the VRO.) Gotta go with iwombat here. And no, motors don't generate metal shavings. They DE-generate into metal shavings. If this owner won't back his personell's work, therefore HIS work, I would be looking at small claims court myself. Time to quit playing with this guy. KR

 

[beau123]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Metal shavings on the plug is not a very good sign. Sooner or later your gonna loose comp on the cylinder with the shavings. I don't believe I've ever heard the phrase "clean it self out" when metal shavings are found. I wish you the best and hope they stand by thier work.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Worse than that--right after it locked-up last Friday, I asked him if the vro had a low-oil-flow alarm, and he said "f-ck no." It's very frustrating to find out otherwise on my own research. I have the 2 most important weekends of the summer coming up, and want my boat but realize I probably won't have it. Even more frustrating is that I made the effort to have everything fixed and running properly over last winter.
He said that since there was no loss in compression, the damage was minor and another rebuild isn't necessary. He keeps saying the same thing: RUN IT.

 

[beau123]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

How long is the warranty you got with the rebuild?? If he's telling you to RUN-IT, ask him "R U gonna rebuild for free if something else goes wrong".

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Well, at this point, I don't think it's wise to have him rebuild it again. I think it's best to just move on and find another shop. I filed a complaint against another shop and got absolutely nowhere. They're nice enough guys and believe it or not, I've managed to keep my cool through this entire process, which, considering how much my wife and I value our time on the water, is remarkable in itself. A lock-up and 6 times back to the shop would be enough to make anyone mad; somehow I've managed to keep cool........at the advice of some of the members here.

 

[iwombat]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

If it were me, I'd simply return the motor to them and insist on a rebuild or replacement powerhead. Worth a shot anyway. Did you pay by credit card? You may have some options through Visa or MC. If you do find another shop, have them document what they find during inspection. That'll be a good trail if this reaches small claims court.

I feel for ya, man. This whole experience just bites.

 

[mikesea]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

iwombat is right,first,the metal shavings thing,that is just absurd,I had a feeling you would find metal on the plugs,something is giving away here,sooner or later,it will fail,and when it does,it might put a rod through the block,making the whole works un-rebuildable,add to that and more important,it could happen when you and your love ones are far from shore with an electrical storm on your ***.This guy is hoping you'll go away,but you paid to have it rebuilt for piece of mind ,which you dont have.I only wish I had your patience.You have a right to be made whole,you paid for it.At the very least,tell the guy,either tear the engine down and do it over,or refund your money.The credit card suggestion is good if it applies,but there is always small claims.That rebuild had to cost you a couple grand or better,usually about 500 a cylinder,you have no reason to feel bad,he didnt insure all possibility of failure was gone before he turned the boat back to you,if an engine needs rebuilding,most important thing a rebuilder should do is figure why it blew to begin with.If he had you boat in possession,he should have checked the fuel for water or other contaminates,guages worked,and most importantALARMS,we would NEVER send a boat out without totally checking that stiuff out.It would be a bit different if he sold you a powerhead and you did the installing,or you brought your eng.to him and then reinstalled it on your boat,he then(like we did)have a clause in the warranty regarding not responsible for things like bad gas etc.Either way,I dont think you should run that engine anymore with metal flying around,it can be sucked into other cylinders as well

 

[iwombat]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

. . . he should have checked the fuel for water or other contaminates,guages worked,and most importantALARMS,we would NEVER send a boat out without totally checking that stiuff out.

Thanks for verifying that. I was pretty sure it was standard practice to check all that stuff out before ponying up a warranty.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

I stopped by the shop late today and they still hadn't looked at it, in spite of promising me that this a.m. I still can't figure out why they don't check alarms after a rebuild. When he said they hadn't gotten to it, I said "Well I guess at this point I should take it and get a second opinion." The conversation changed after that. He knows I'm at the end of my rope, although I still managed to keep cool. I asked him again about the cylinder "smoothing itself out" deal, and he assured me that it happens and told me about a couple of people with the same experience; I should've gotten their names. It now runs fine except for the missing and no power above 3500 rpm; same as before. He said it's ok to run it as it is. I asked him if he will honor the warranty if it fails again and he said yes. However, you are right about the peace of mind; I don't have it and therefore haven't gotten my 1800.00 worth. The only thing that leads me to believe I got lucky is the compression is still at 150 lbs for each cylinder. If I go to him and say "I understand you think the motor is fine in spite of locking up; however, I don't have confidence in it anymore and am asking you to honor your warranty and rebuild it," I highly doubt he will do it. If he doesn't it is even more unlikely that he will give even a partial refund. He is very convinced / convincing that the scored cylinder walls will work themselves clean. At this point I really don't know what to do............

 

[mikesea]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

You got a motor that wont go above 3500,thats 2000 rpm less than it should be,its not going to get better,it will get worse.Ask the fool if he'd put his kid in an airplane that locked up and only runs half power.I wouldnt put it past him to say when it blows for good.WHY DID YOU run it when it was bad.Start a log bud,document all his conversations and your down time.
"It now runs fine except for the missing and no power "
Thats contradictory,cant do both
Tell him at this point make it a priority to get the engine working to correct specs.
5000-5500 rpm.or YOU will have NO CHOICE but bring it to small claims.
I don't have any other suggestions,you certainly went above and beyond.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

A couple of things to consider --

The oil injection system on your motor, regardless if it's a VRO, VRO II or OMS, cannot pick on one cylinder. Either it is or it isn't adding oil (or water if that's what's in the tank) to the fuel. Period.

A clogged carb jet will not only restrict fuel to one cylinder but it'll restrict oil to one cylinder. Regardless if it's oil injected or premix. A clogged jet will pick on one cylinder.

That motor should not have 150 lbs compression.

A couple of things to find out --

What is the WOT timing set at now? And how was it set?

What spark plugs are you running? What grade fuel? How old?

The biggest question of all -- why was the motor rebuilt? If it had a damamged piston then, was the cause of that damaged piston found and corrected? Or was the motor simply rebuilt? (Did that same piece of dirt cause the first failure? Hummmm..........)

 

[Dhadley]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

And loose metal in a cylinder is never OK.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Well, if that's the case, then he's even more liable. Last friday when lake testing the boat with the mechanic, he ran it and ran it and ran it at wide open (nearly 6 gal of fuel) before he decided to look for a fuel restriction in the carb; and sure enough, that's what it was!! In fact, when he found the piece of dirt, I asked him "If it was blocking fuel flow, doesn't that mean it was also blocking oil flow?" And he said, "Not enough to worry about." Based on what you're saying, fuel restriction IS a very bad thing since it also deprives the motor of oil. I wonder if the damage was already done before he cleaned the carb out. Having said that, why didn't he check for fuel restriction first? He changed plugs, then ran it again; He switched wires, then ran it again; The LAST thing he checked was carburetion and found the restriction; this is after running it hard while he was doing all the other checks. As for the other items:

Why should it not be 150 lbs., and what should the compression be?

I don't know how the timing is set.

Plugs are Champion QL77JC4, although during the lake test when he was trying to diagnose the problem, he put a set of NGK plugs in (don't know the number).

Fuel is super unleaded, purchased the day of the lake test.

As for the reason for rebuilding--last summer I lost about 1/4 of a ring on one cylinder. Shop found the problem was water intrusion due to faulty head gaskets and exhaust cover gaskets (so he said). I then had him rebuild the motor over the winter, including the carbs..........and now we're pretty much back to square one. I do NOT have confidence in that motor and the more I think about it the more inclined I am to ask for another rebuild or a refund.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Typically the compression is around 120 or so. They must have cut the heads and/or decks to get that much. You have to be real careful if more than .010" (total) has been removed. But that's why he wants to run hi-test fuel (usually a no-no). I don't understand why he put NGK plugs in. Especially when he knows there's a pretty good chance the motor is going into detonation (metal flakes on plugs) already. Could be what caused the first issue. Not likely water did it. Especially if it's the same cylinder(s) now.

Usually if you raise the compression on that motor you'll rejet the carbs to compensate for the increase and the fact you have to run hi-test fuel. Since he didn't we'll assume he didn't clean the carbs. Otherwise he would have found the dirty jet. Cleaning the carbs is a standard part of a rebuild as is replacing the water pump and t-stats.

Once he found the metal on the plugs he should have popped the head off right there or at least looked at the piston dome with a scope. There's a good chance the sharp edges of the piston are being burned away. That will not cure itself.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

He rebuilt the carbs at the same time as the motor. He also replaced the thermostats; water pump was just done the year before and has very low hours on it due to all the powerhead problems, so we opted to leave it; pumping very strong.
As for finding the metal filings, all he did was put a new set of plugs in and told me to run it at the lake again. No scope, and he didn't pull the head off. I really appreciate your input, although I'm starting to feel like a fool for believing these guys. I might just ask him if he would send his daughter out onto the lake in my boat, knowing the condition of the motor. At this point, I wouldn't trust him to do another rebuild. Any advice on how to get a refund out of him, so I can move on?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Generally speaking it's doubtful a refund will happen. It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask him to verify where the metal filings are coming from (and show you) and fix the cause as well as any damage since you paid the bill. If you take it to another shop he'll say you didn't allow him to fix the problem.

You paid the bill expecting to get back a motor that can be operated as it was designed to from the factory. That includes using 87 octane in a stock, recreational outboard. However, if you specified an increase in horsepower, that's a different ball game.

Regardless, he needs to address the metal on the plug(s) issue. After a rebuild of a stock recreational outboard that's his responsibility.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

I doubt he will agree to verifying where the damage is, since he is saying it is minimal and that it will "smooth itself out." As for not allowing him to fix the problem, I've brought the boat back to him 6 times with the same symptoms, and it finally took him a lake test to check for a fuel restriction--the last thing he checked for!! If I understand you correctly, no fuel = no oil. If that is the case, why would he have waited to check for a fuel restriction? Also, my limited ability tells me that you can check for spark without running wide-open as he did. I've checked spark on my lawnmower before by removing the plug and slowly pulling the flywheel. I assume there must be a similar way to check spark on an outboard. Based on the no fuel = no oil principal, common sense tells me that a fuel restriction/plugged jet would be the first thing to check for. Instead, he ran it hard while checking for ignition problems, when all the while it was a plugged jet.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Think about the fuel / oil mix. Regardless of how it's mixed, injected or pre-mix, it's mixed before the single incoming line to the carb fuel manifold. All the fuel has the same amount of oil when it leaves the fuel pump, regardless of what type pump it is. 50:1, 25:1, 0:1 - it's all the same. No one side of one carb or even one carb will see a different mix. Even the primer pump sees the same mix. If you have a clogged carb jet and flow thru that jet is restricted, you'll have less gas and therefore less oil going into that cylinder. Stop or restrict the fuel and you stop or restrict the oil. Once the oil is mixed in the gas there's nothing on that motor that can seperate them.

As for the 'minimal" damage, you paid for a damage free rebuilt powerhead. You didn't pay for a rebuilt motor with slight damage. If it's going into detonation, it'll get worse - not better.

I didn't say you didn't give him a chance, I'm just telling you what he might say. Regardless of how many times you take it back. Just an FYI because I've seen it before.

 

[reload]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

Horror stories like this is why I taught myself to do most everything. You can't trust nobody. It is a dang shame folks don't stand behind there work or even take pride in there work.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: motor lock-up @4000 rpm; how much damage?

I picked the boat up last week. He disabled the vro and I'm going premix now. He said he looked into each cylinder w/ a scope and that the cylinder walls looked great. I then asked him about the metal filings and he said they must be coming from the piston, and again said it should "smooth itself out." Anyway, it runs great; ran it all weekend with no loss of power, idles excellent and just as much power out of the hole as ever. At this point I'm going to just run it as he said to do; if it self-destructs, I guess that's what warranties are for. Not sure what else to do..........