Reman engine running - noise?

[erikgreen]

I kinda buried this question in my rapido block thread, but I wanted to ask it here so it gets seen - it's bugging me.

I installed my 350 reman block from rapido in my boat last weekend, and finally got it running today. In addition to the rebuilt block and heads, it has a new alternator, starter, circulating water pump and plugs.

I put 5 quarts of 10w30 in, along with ATF fluid for the power steering. I ran the motor with the sterndrive in a livestock tank of water.

The motor sounds pretty good (now that the timing is right, 8 deg BTDC). But, it also sounds like it's sort of "rubbing" inside.. there's a bit more clicking and whirring than I'm used to with a motor.

Is this just because it's breaking in its new parts?

I'm planning on taking it to the lake for the actual motor break-in, running it at 2k rpm for an hour, then 3k for 2 hours, then bursts to WOT for a few min only until I reach 10 hours, after which I'll drive normally.

Erik

 

[RCSConstruction]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

If your not used to a motor right in your face, than the motor noise may be a bit louder than you imagined. The crank is whirling around, the rods are going up and down, the lifters are breaking in, etc...
You could also be hearing the outdrive u-joints as well.
If I heard a knock or a clack, then I would be concerned.
When it's time to readjust the valves, I imagine the motor will quiet down some.
If it's something bad it will rear it's ugly head during the break in period.

 

[RCSConstruction]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

I'm planning on taking it to the lake for the actual motor break-in, running it at 2k rpm for an hour, then 3k for 2 hours, then bursts to WOT for a few min only until I reach 10 hours, after which I'll drive normally.

Erik

I would only run it 30 mins max at 2000 rpm for the cam's sake. After that I would keep it under 3800 rpm's and vary the speed every 5-10 mins during the first 10 hours with a burst of WOT every once in awhile after the first couple hours.
The bursts of wot and backing off creates alot of pressure in the cylinder's/pistons and helps seat the rings better.
Just my .02

 

[KaGee]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Eric, i broke my engine in without the drive connected so I would not be bothered confusing drive noises with engine noises.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

I thought you were supposed to do the break-in under load, IE driving?

Should I do the break-in in my driveway?

Erik

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Erik,

I'm a car guy and learning boats like you but why do you run it at 2K for 1 hour,....then 3K for 2 hours? In a car engine I would always break the cam in above 2k for about 20-30 minutes. Then to seat the rings I would take it up to 35-40 mph then take my foot off the gas and "load" the engine to about 10 mph and then do it again. I do it a few times and then take it easy on the engine. Replace the oil at 100 miles to get rid of all the metal shavings. Keep the MPH down for the first 3000 and change again which in my mind would be "no WOT" or a boat. Now there is a different thought process out there that is run it like the devil from the first cause if it's gonna break, may as well be right away?? But I'm not made of money!

Is this break in procedure from Rapido?

I'm interested because I have no idea how break in would work in a boat??

Just realize a new engine is going to be "real tight" for a few thousand miles. Just like good Muffs.

What.....I'm referring to an earlier post on how to use muffs???

 

[KaGee]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Erik, the initial cam break in is what we're talking about. I was told 1500 RPM for about 20 minutes. I did it with the drive off like I said above.

In the water I never took it above 2500 for the first few hours. I was also told to vary the RPM up and down. It was 10 hours before I took it over 3000.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

I've heard the 10 hour number too. My info on this is from reading this forum and elsewhere - basically articles on break-in and such.

What I've heard comes down to:

1) Run it 2k or so for an hour
2) Run it 3k for the next couple hours
3) Run it only in bursts (5 min or less) to WOT until you hit 10 hours

And I had thought that this should be done under load, but maybe the people who did it just didn't want to do it on the trailer?

Erik

 

[RCSConstruction]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Eric,
Break-in procedure is like a salad, everyone does there's differently. Some will say 20 hours before it's broke in, some will say ride it hard, some will baby it, etc... (you get the picture.)
One thing is for certain and that is to vary the speed ALOT. Do not run it at any speed for any length of time. No long idle's. No WOT for extened periods of time. I outlined how I broke mine in above. I wouldn't break it in on the driveway, again, the "initial" cam break-in can be done that way but not the entire motor.
Good luck

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Not looking to "steal the thread".........but...........I am also going to be breaking in my new engine in the next few weeks. My plan was to get it running and put it away for the winter.........wasn't planning on dropping it in the water. Does this sound ok?: Was going to get it running, set the timing, and run it at different RPM's for a while (don't forget it's a roller cam)........all in my driveway.......no outdrive installed..........going to connect the garden hose to the raw water pump on the engine. Could let it run for a while and do the real break-in next spring.

Let me know if you guys think I should start a new thread.........

 

[Buttanic]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

This is my opinion based on having built a fair number of auto, boat, motorcycle and racing engines. I am not a professional mechanic but I have complete set of engine building tools, mikes, spring checker, bore gauges, etc. I tear the engine down, inspect and measure all parts, determine what can be reused and what needs machine work. I determine what I want the machinest to do. When I get the parts back I measure his work, I have found errors by doing this. If the engine is put together properly with the proper clearnces then the most that should be required is cam break in if it is a flat tappet cam. Moly filled piston rings, which I feel is the only type that should be used, on a round, properly finished cylinder will seat durning cam break in. Break in is almost a thing of the past in modern production engines because of better materials, more precise machining and assemby. Break in is for when things aren't exacty as they should be which is usually the case with engines rebuilt by mass production rebuilders. My circle track racing engines went from cam break in to racing at 7000 rpm without problems. Several engines I raced for two years before rebuilding, never had one break.
I have never followed any break in procedure on any new car other than driving normally and have never had problems doing so. If the engine was put together wrong the problem will show up pretty soon and no amount of break in will prevent it.

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

RCS, Kagee and mkpj1 all have it right. I am a professional tech and there are two break-ins on a new flat tappet cam motor. The first is 20 minutes of 2000 min rpm no-load operation to seat the lifters to the cam. I think you've already screwed this one up by running it for 5 mins at a time, if it's not a roller cam. The second part involves loading the motor to seat the rings properly. For that you want to do a lot of accelerations at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. This is to allow combustion pressure to get behind the rings and really force them against the cylinder wall to seat them. In the old days of cast iron rings, the ring faces were soft and pretty much seated during cam break-in, but moly faced rings are much harder and require a dedicated seating procedure. If you don't do it properly, you won't harm anything, but you'll end up with a motor that uses a lot of oil and doesn't produce all the power that it could.

So basically, once you're in the water do a few stop-starts and a few 2500 rpm - 4500 rpm accelerations and you should be good to go.

BTW--Car break-in rules were established the way they were b/c on a car you have a lot of mechanical items to break-in. Transmission clutches, wheel bearings, brakes.....the list goes on and on. Also all the parts are made of virgin material that hasn't really been heat cycled or work hardened yet so to prevent warpage, load and heat has to be controlled.

--
Stan

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

How long does it take to break in the cam?

I doubt I've run the engine at this point for 15 minutes total, so I'm planning on running the cam break-in with no load, then taking the boat to the lake for the next part. Maybe the cam break in is already screwed up, maybe not.

Erik

PS: I don't *think* it's a roller cam, but I honestly haven't asked (I probably should have). I had Raul @Rapido put in a "performance cam and springs" but beyond that I don't know what exactly he did... maybe just a more aggressive cam grind?

 

[John_S]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Eric,
You don't have a roller cam (I just rechecked your pics in the other thread).


While your break-in procedures might be different because of the cam, what does the guy warranteeing the engine say to do?



Tony,
Follow whatever guidance provided by Rapido, but I would think you are OK to run the engine at fast idle, warm the engine up, set timing, mixture, idle, valves, check for vacuum and water leaks, etc. All things you would have to do be launching and putting a load on it, anyway.

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

How long does it take to break in the cam?

I doubt I've run the engine at this point for 15 minutes total, so I'm planning on running the cam break-in with no load, then taking the boat to the lake for the next part. Maybe the cam break in is already screwed up, maybe not.

The problem is that there is special assembly lube used on the cam and lifters that protects them from scuffing until the lifters are broken in to the cam and rotating in their bores properly. This lube is supposed to protect during the startup until oil comes up to pressure and starts doing it's job. If you do one start and then break the cam in, you are good to go. If you start and shut down and then start again and shut down and then start again and shutdown, the special lube gets washed off the lobes and then you get an unprotected start. It won't kill the cam or lifter right away, but it's the difference between 100 hrs and 1500 hrs. Maybe you'll get lucky, I certainly hope so! I'm not telling you this to bash you; just giving information, so please don't take it the wrong way.

When I do an engine all the settings are made statically to "close enough" to start and run, once it's fired up it goes to 2000 rpm and doesn't get touched until 20 minutes are up, then it gets brought back down to idle and mixture, timing and base idle are set. Then it gets driven to break in the rings. But like John said "Do whatever the guy warranteeing the engine tells you to do". Couldn't agree more.
--
Stan

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

You're talking about the moly engine assembly lube, I take it?

I don't know exactly what rapido uses, that's a question for them I guess. Probably the only way to tell is to take the engine apart at this point and look, and that's not happening

I did pre-lube the engine by running the oil pump with a drill before the first start.

Unfortunately I'm not good enough with engines to get everything "close enough" to start the first time. It took about 10 tries to get the timing right so it would start. Maybe the next time I build an engine

Erik

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

I wouldn't sweat it. If I was in your place I wouldn't be taking it apart again, either. Particularly not on the word of some internet ahole. I would figure that time will tell and it'll either be alright or it won't and I'll deal with it then.
I bet you're getting excited to try it out though, huh. I know I usually am.
I just bought another boat last Wed. It's a little 16' Checkmate with a 150 hp mariner on it. I couldn't wait to get out last weekend to test run her. I mean she's a little rough and needs a lot of work, but just to get out on the lake and run her was a thrill. So here's to you and hoping for the best!!

--
Stan

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

Yep. Been waiting since Feb. to get a good working boat, and been waiting since July to have this one working again (got in a car crash first trip out when I got it). I've lost track of how many hours I've spent working on boats this year (got to be in the hundreds).

There's a decent chance I'll take it on the lake this next weekend. We'll see what happens then, I guess.

I'll report back in my engine rebuild thread how things went.

Erik

 

[MikDee]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

The problem is that there is special assembly lube used on the cam and lifters that protects them from scuffing until the lifters are broken in to the cam and rotating in their bores properly. This lube is supposed to protect during the startup until oil comes up to pressure and starts doing it's job. If you do one start and then break the cam in, you are good to go. If you start and shut down and then start again and shut down and then start again and shutdown, the special lube gets washed off the lobes and then you get an unprotected start. It won't kill the cam or lifter right away, but it's the difference between 100 hrs and 1500 hrs. Maybe you'll get lucky, I certainly hope so! I'm not telling you this to bash you; just giving information, so please don't take it the wrong way.

When I do an engine all the settings are made statically to "close enough" to start and run, once it's fired up it goes to 2000 rpm and doesn't get touched until 20 minutes are up, then it gets brought back down to idle and mixture, timing and base idle are set. Then it gets driven to break in the rings. But like John said "Do whatever the guy warranteeing the engine tells you to do". Couldn't agree more.
--
Stan

I'm With SN on this one, I totally agree with his break in procedure, especially the cam break in, it's exactly the way I do it.

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Reman engine running - noise?

I have a VP 3.0 2007 motor and just went through the break-in period. I thought I'd share what VP puts in their manual (The procedure is almost 3 pages long, I abridged it for the sake of time here, but all important info is here).

FIRST TWO HOURS:
1. first 5-10 minutes, run the motor above 1500 RPM.
2. During the remaining 2 hours, accelerate hard to bring the boat on plane quickly then reduce the throttle back to maintain planing attitude. During this period, vary the engine speed frequently by accelerating to 3/4 throttle for 2-3 minutes then back to minimum cruising speed to maintain plane.
3. After the engine has reached operating temp, momnetarily reduce engine speed, then increase engine speed to assist break-in of piston rings and bearings. Maintain plane to avoid excessive load.
CAUTION! for the initial 2 hour break-in, do not run at any constant RPM for prolonged period of time.

NEXT EIGHT HOURS:
1. Continue to operate a 3/4 throttle or less. Occasionally reduce to idle speed for a cooling period.
2. During this period, you may operate at full throttle for periods of less than 2 minutes.

FINAL TEN HOURS:
1. During this time, you may operate at full throttle for 5-10 minutes at a time.
2. After warming the motor, momentarily increase engine speed.
3. Occasionally reduce engine speed to idle to provide cooling periods.

At the end of the 20 hour break-in period, drain the crankcase and replace the oil filter.

Some of the instructions here are a bit confusing, but that's the way they are written.

Chuck