thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

wca_tim

Lieutenant Commander
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May 28, 2007
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Going from 4.3 to 350 in my 18 foot, 2300 pound wet boat. (hull has a pad and tight power steering) with alpha 1 outdrive. runs 52-60 with 4.3 depending on prop and loading. I'ts been 20 years since I built a small block chevy from the ground up, but I'm generally pretty handy. I do worry about selecting a good combination of carb, cam, intake and heads though.

I picked up a complete mercruiser 350 with older style heads, roller cam ready block, oem manifolds, 4 barrel, etc... it came with everything from the transom forwarx including electrical, ignition, distributor, water pump, starter, etc... all oem mercruiser parts.

I've done a lot of reading and here's what I'm currently considering:

Looking for fairly flat torque curve with usable power from off idle with peak hp at 5200-5500 rpms.

Components:

Cast dart or world products heads with 2.02 / 1.60 valve heads and 165-170 cc intake runners (If I pick up a little extra work in the next few wweks, will consider going closed cooling and aluminum heads).

Comp cams hydraulic roller grind Xm270HR (duration at 0.5 lift: 218 224, lift: .495 .503; LSA: 112?) with appropriate springs, pushrods, magnum 1.6 rockers.

good cast lower end components, carefully balance and blueprint everything,file fit piston ring end gap, new rod bolts at a minimum, have rotating assembly balanced. Ideally will buy new 383 rotating assembly once I talk to machinst and see what cost will be for block work.

Edelbrock 750 marine carb (have been really happy with the 600 on my 4.3).

Exhaust will be at a minimum aluminum glm, most likely second hand headers or stainless steel manifold / riser combo.

and whatever else makes sense...

Oh, and the alpha drive gets a different upper half with 1.5:1 gear ratio, a drive shower, and good synthetic lube changed often. maybe a temp transducer. Then I've got enough parts to piece together a second outdrive as a back-up if I fry the first. I may get bored / ambitious and buy the tools, do homework and try to rebuild the second drive with heavy duty gears, cryo / heat treat everything myself and whatever else I can learn to help strengthen that link.

Perhaps if I try and build for lots of increase on midle and upper end of hp band with mild increases increase in low end torque (corrected for gear ratio) to what I have now, it'll spare the drive some on take-offs (it has plenty out of the hole now...).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or experience - especially with respect to the general combination and approach... I know it probably seems simple / obvious to a lot of you, thanks for bearing with me. Oh and thanks to a few of you who have posted so much information in the past and those who have been patient with my questions.
 
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John_S

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Jun 21, 2004
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4,269
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

While there are a few motorheads that hang out here, 95% of this forum is focused on boat repair, maintenance, restoration, and general boating stuff. Most of the modification threads here deal with near stock upgrades. I think what you are proposing is touching into the pure performance realm. You may find some of the go-fast boards (SpeedWake, OffShoreOnly) have more people that have run your proposed engine combo. Most play with the big blocks, but there is a good representation on small-blocks. They may also be experienced with your particular hull and how much more you will be able to get out of it. iBoats is a great boating forum, but performance engine building and pure speed is not its niche.

Don't get me wrong, would like to hear how you proceed and the testing results.
 

blouderback

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Apr 6, 2006
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304
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

I have no idea what 90% of those things you said are, but I think that boat is gonna FLY.
 

MikDee

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Jun 6, 2007
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4,745
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

It all sounds good to me, but why would you want 1.6 ratio rockers with that nice cam, that part seems like overkill to me? Also, it's your engine, but do you really need 383 cubes, instead of 350, or 355? With that you're building a torque monster, to really tax your drive. You can get plenty of hp out of that small block as it is, for such a light boat, are you going all out racing? but that's only my opinion. ;)
 

ron7000

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Jul 10, 2004
Messages
498
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

where have you done a lot of reading is the question,
they have done some good articles at chevyhiperformance.com on 350 and 383 builds which ought to give you an idea of what kind of output numbers to expect for given parts and dimensions you go with, and what parts and combos work.

from what you said i think you have to first decide whether you're going to keep the 350 crank or get a 383 crank. Only then can then plan on your cylinder head and cam/valvetrain combo otherwise you'll most likely waste time and money on them. And of course how much money you want to spend is a big factor too. When working the bottom end of the block regardless, the key things would be an align hone of the crankshaft main bores in addition to cylinder boring/honing. And if you keep the 350 crank then have it checked for runout. Then it's bearing clearances on the crankshaft main bearings, crank endplay, and have the whole rotating assembly balanced. You don't want an externally balanced 350, with weights on the flywheel. Find out what you have currently, and whether your current crank can be machined for an internally balanced motor- that'll all depend with new pistons and rods. Because you're wanting 5000+ rpms and especially if you go the 383 route you should definitely spend time looking for a reputable shop that can balance the rotating assembly.
 

tombstone

Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
19
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

Sounds like a good package. Remember, torque is a Alpha killer. No hole shots ever. Hammer down only on a good plane or cruise speed than the alfa may live a long life. I run a 383 in a 18 Donzi with AFR 195 alum heads producing 475-500# torque and my Alpha still lives. Torque and a Alpha can coexist providing you use common sense on the throttle and a light boat. Not recommended for barges. Good luck. Jim
 

wca_tim

Lieutenant Commander
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May 28, 2007
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Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

Tombstone, How fast is the Donzi? what gear ratio and prop? This is going in in place of the v-6 in my 17'6" checkmate, so I'm assuming we're in the same ball park in terms of hull weight and performace.

Overall, thanks for thoughts. Local engine builder / machinist (marine) "helped" me work through this today (he basically took me to school and laid out the best combination for the kind of thing I'm looking for).

With the prices he quoted me on parts and machine work, I'll be well within my budget and should wind up with a reliable, 400+ horsepower small block. Scat forged and balanced (383) lower end with steel crank, World products (or Dart) 200 cc runner 2.02/1.60 valve 64cc heads, machined recessed pistons, about 8.5-9.0:1 compression ratio, crane cam, edelbrock intake and 750 marine carb. He recommended I consider an oil cooler if I'm going to run it long and hard, but said it would be fine If I wasn't going to pull long runs at higher rpm (he said to set wot about 5200-5300). he recommended that I see how things run with the 1.84 gear ratio out drive and a 28" or 30" prop and sort of hinted that I may like performance better there given the light boat at higher speeds than at a 1.5 gear ratio, and said he had props around that i could try. They had run direct comparisons of exhaust systems on a number of different engine builds and gave me several suggested options - a most power, and very good power with lowest cost. He also had some interesting things to say about alpha drive's on lighter boats and not believing everything you read or hear... roller cams vs hydraulic, oils to use when and why in both outdrive and engine, etc... Quite an interesting and eye-opening experience....

He patiently answered my questions with a smile and explained things as we stood there in a large well-light shop, (no obvious sign on the front or real evidence from the road of what all the buildings were full of) surrounded by computer controlled machine equipment, piles / shelving units of new and used (mostly marine) parts, a lot of engines on stands (mostly big blue ones sporting aluminum heads and blowers), and a couple of guys finishing up a pair of blown bigblocks in a very clean bay / room off to the side. Once in a while the owner would go to a shelf or another room to see if he had the piece on hand or show methe difference between one thing or another. They're going to machine and blueprint all the block dimensions, balance the rotating assembly with harmonic balancer and flywheel, check all the bearing clearances; then let me put it all together and finish setting everything up before bringing it back to run on the dyno and see how it turns out... Made me realize just how much I've missed playing like this, and really kinda made my day...
 

TilliamWe

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Dec 21, 2004
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Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

My only input is that you'll hardly need a 750cfm carb. If it gives you trouble when you get it all together, try that 600 you already have or get a 650. It is very easy to over carb a SBC. Unless you get headers, your motor isn't going to exhaust well enough to use all those 750cfms of air.
Please read the post about the mating surfaces of GLM manifold that Bond-o (I think) started a few days ago. You'll want to check yours closely if that's the way you go.
Is your machinist gonna make new front motor mounts for you, or are you going to move the mounts in the boat forward? Handy with fiberglass?
And of course, you KNOW that the boat's stringers and transom are perfectly solid, right?
 

John_S

Rear Admiral
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Jun 21, 2004
Messages
4,269
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

750 with vacuum secondaries will fine on this motor. Merc used 750 Q-jet and Webers on 5.7LX and 350 Mags. A 600 would probably be slightly restrictive on a performance 383.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

It's a light boat and a light drive. Heed the torque warnings, unless you are after monster hole shot you don't need it anyway . . .
 

mtnrat

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Messages
419
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

I am building a 383 from the ground up. Have just installed the valve train.

My build
Roller retrofit on a 1972, 010, 350 block
Enginequest Heads 200cc and 72cc combustion chamber.
SB Chevy 383 Mahle -16cc D-Dish Pistons.
Scat 383 4340 Standard Weight Crank - 3.750" Stroke - 6" Rods.
Scat 4340 Forged Pro Stock SBC 6.000" I-Beam Rods - 7/16" Cap Screw.
RPM air gap intake
Q-jet carb.
Roller retrofit lifters.
Clevite 77 bearings
etc etc.
Static compression of 9.1:1

For the cam I called up Chris Straub at Straub technologies, to custom design a cam for my exact needs. Not much more money and matched exactly the components I was using. He is known as one of the best cam designers.

From what I can see you will have a hard time getting that low a compression with 64cc combustion chambers unless you use a full dish piston without any quench area. It is very important to have proper quench if you want a very efficient engine.
 

tombstone

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Jan 29, 2008
Messages
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Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

I am building a 383 from the ground up. Have justStatic compression of 9.1:1

For the cam I called up Chris Straub at Straub technologies, to custom design a cam for my exact needs. Not much more money and matched exactly the components I was using. He is known as one of the best cam designers.

From what I can see you will have a hard time getting that low a compression with 64cc combustion chambers unless you use a full dish piston without any quench area. It is very important to have proper quench if you want a very efficient engine.

Chris Straub, although conservative is one the best in cam design.
My 383 is 0 decked with 16cc dish pistons and .038 quench netting 9.5 comp. What are your #'s on the custom cam??
 

mtnrat

Chief Petty Officer
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Jul 29, 2006
Messages
419
Re: thoughts / input from the tech crowd out there...

it is grind number CHS260/272-12HR
specs are:
duration at .050 212 intake 218 exhaust
separation 112
gross valve lift .510 intake .480 exhaust

Idle quality was important to me, as well as good torque starting at low RPM.
 
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