Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

[worldmac1]

Hey fellas, I?m pretty new to the whole boating scene, and I have a couple of questions. ?.Here goes?.

SPECS:
I have a 1984 SeaRay 245 Sundancer with a Mercruiser 260 5.7 GM/ Alpha One Outdrive. It stays in a wet slip in NC. The temps here are mild compared to the temps up north, but even so I have winterized it as of December with help of fellow boaters at the marina.

History:
My wife and I purchased this boat in the later part of ?07 summer, and it ran really good. When we picked it up initially, it was in brackish water, but you could tell the integrity of the boat had been well maintained. It had fresh bottom paint, and the bilge area was very clean as well.

One weekend we were out cruising and all of a sudden, SMOKE!!! Smoke started billowing out from everywhere, the sides, helm, and stern! We turned the boat off, and got the extinguishers ready! Holy cow! We are new to boating and this is a very scary time for us! After the smoke cleared, we raised the lid to the engine area and it smelled like burnt rubber. I looked closer and the belt to the alternator had become loose and smoked up the area. We let things cool off and then we were going to fire it up and head back to the dock?.Well, we were going to try to, but the shifter wouldn?t go back into neutral?.Now what??!! I looked again and the shifter was melted flat to the side of the engine! With that being said we were able to get a fellow boaters attention and they helped tow us back. (Another adventure)

I had one of the marina techs check things out, and the news wasn?t good. It turns out I had the shifter cable replaced, shutters, and a few other things. What happened was a fresh water hose crimped and didn?t let water go into the engine or something like that?It also cooked the impeller of the outdrive as well as other things. (Keep in mind I am extremely new to this so the accurate terms may differ) Once I had the whole outdrive gone through we went out again a few times and enjoyed the water. The last time we brought the boat in, we almost didn?t get it in the slip. It sputtered, cut off, and ran like crap. Whew, now what??!!

My Situation:
I have water in the oil now? The level of everything doesn?t just read around the inch and half mark. It reads about 5 to 7 inches on the stick, and I cannot get the oil out at all. I have purchased a pump from Wal-Mart, Advance Auto, and now a drill operated one from Lowes, but still no go. I heard that if the Plugs are clean it?s probably a head gasket, that it allows water in and then steams the plug clean. I?ve heard it could be a manifold, but a leak down test would be necessary. Then there is the worse news of all, cracked block? I?m scared to do a compression test with all of the water in there in case the block isn?t messed up.

Just in case the worse feared turns out to be the problem, I have been pricing new and remanufactured engines. What do you guys think about these engine vendors? Michigan Motorz, Jasper, Performance Product Technology. If any of you have any suggestions or information on this please let me know. My wife and I are bummed out about boating right now, but we would love to head out this spring and spend time on the water with the rest of you guys.

This is where my rambling stops ?.for now.=)
Greg - from Tobacco road?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Ayuh,........

Welcome Aboard Greg,..... You're amongest Friends now,......

From your post,...
I'd Think that the original Problem was a failed Impeller,....
That'll Smoke everything else when the impeller stops pushing water up to the motor......

If you're showing 5" to 7" on the dipstick,.... The 1st order of business is Draining the base,...
Rather than throwing more Money away by changing the oil,+ whatnot,.....

I'd Drain the base,... Drain the Cooling System,... Then block off the cooling system by clamping off some hoses,+ Pressurizing the Cooling System,+ Listen for the air excaping,...

That'll point you to any Failure in the cooling system,+ Hopefully to Why the base is full of water.........

 

[ziggy]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

here's some stuff to read...
"http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf"

"http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_10.pdf"

 

[dcg9381]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

It sounds like you've baked a head gasket at a minimum. With it running and a lot of water inside, it sounds like you're going to be doing a motor pull, regardless... Water in the oil while running means that it got pumped around the internals - usually the results are 50%/50% on needing a bottom end at that point.


For getting the water out, there isn't any reason why you can't pump out water just like oil. You can pay $70-$80 for one of those vacuum pumps if your boat doesn't allow easy access to the pan... Otherwise, you're looking at pulling it anyway... If you're going to reuse the bottom end - or rebuild it, you'll want that water out ASAP and to new oil in.. Pump it around via the oil pump drive on the distributor. Water sitting on exposed metal ain't good...

The nice thing about water is that it's a good cleaner, in many cases once you pull the heads you'll see a nice shiny piston top near where the water leak was... Not all the time, mind you, but in the cases where water went into the cylinders.


On your reman question - there's a reoccurring reference for a marine-specific manufacturer out of FL maybe, the name escapes me, but you'll find in on this forum. There are many reasons to go marine specific... Of the other names, I know Jasper - which seems to be OK for rebuilds, but they do get a mixed bag of feedback.


Note, you can do a leak down test without spinning the block... But, like I said, you're going to be in this thing anyway...

If you're doing it yourself, keep us posted - otherwise find a good mechanic, preferably independent!

 

[worldmac1]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Thank you very much for all the helpful information, literature, and friendly advice. You guys have been very helpful. I'm not sure how long it will be before I have a solution to all this madness, but when I have completed it I will definitely post it here.

I think my next move is to somehow get my boat trailered and brought home. I also think I will try and make my own crane and yank the engine out myself. If not, there is this marine shop (not on the lake) I can take it to. ...Any ideas on crane building? LOL

I must say....This forum is the greatest, and I thank you all for taking the time to post your views, and solutions, etc.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Any ideas on crane building?

Ayuh,......

There has been several of the guys who have built gantries,+ written threads about them,....
Most with Pictures,.........

That's what the Search Button is for...........

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

You can also rent an A-Frame hoist from someplace like Ace Rents or something. Or a come-along thrown over a good solid beam in a barn or something...

You and I are in the same boat so to speak. I have a 1981 Sea Ray 195 that got water in the oil, and the owner didn't want to fix it. I'm getting ready to do an engine swap. I'm just going to get a truck engine from a salvage yard ($65 on half-price day, how can you beat that?), replace the freeze plugs with brass ones, and swap all the marine parts over from my old engine. Should take a couple of weekends with a buddy helping, and save me about $4,000 or so...

 

[mikeneal]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

A fork truck also works andanother optionm is have everything unbolted, wires etc. fuel, line drive off, in other words totally ready for lift off and get a tow truck to come and extend the boom and yank er out. If it is completely loose the tow truck is only there for 5 minutes. Same deal to put it back.

 

[John_S]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Come on! Whats a backyard mechanic without a tree?

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Is there any way that he could have gotten that much water in the crancase from failed exhaust manifolds? What about a crack in the intake manifold? I ask this, cause I'd hate to see you build a crane, yank the motor, remove the heads, and find no head gasket problem. Put it all back together only to have it do it again.
The number one source of water getting in a marine engine is the exahust manifolds. It's also the #2, #3, and #4 source as well. Just do a search on the guy that was mad at Crusader for valve overlap ruining two motors, when all it really was was his exhaust manifolds.
Please check the easy to reach stuff before you tear out a motor, get more discouraged and quit after spending a crap ton of money. We'd like you stick around as a boater, not leave saying boats are evil.

 

[worldmac1]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Is there any way that he could have gotten that much water in the crancase from failed exhaust manifolds? What about a crack in the intake manifold? I ask this, cause I'd hate to see you build a crane, yank the motor, remove the heads, and find no head gasket problem. Put it all back together only to have it do it again.
The number one source of water getting in a marine engine is the exahust manifolds. It's also the #2, #3, and #4 source as well. Just do a search on the guy that was mad at Crusader for valve overlap ruining two motors, when all it really was was his exhaust manifolds.
Please check the easy to reach stuff before you tear out a motor, get more discouraged and quit after spending a crap ton of money. We'd like you stick around as a boater, not leave saying boats are evil.

Absolutely TilliamWe!! I'll check those out as well. I'll do a little research through some of the other forums here, and see how to go about doing a leak down test first. I guess this will tell me a little "need to know info" right? Maybe take the manifolds off and leak test them at the house, that might be easier.

Yo Bond-o!! Thanks for the advice on the Gantry search here. I didn't think there was a way at all to build such a thing, but after researching I found a few threads with pics! Thanks man!

 

[mercrewser]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

When a marine engine overheats due to a restriction in the coolant supply, usually the manifolds and/or risers crack first. Anything related to the exhaust melts, and that includes plastic/rubber outdrive internals (waterpump housing). I had this happen before, water in the oil the whole bit. Turns out just the manifolds where bad. The engine has to get really hot to crack. I would keep an eye on the outdrive gear oil because sometimes the drive seals can go bad due to hot uncooled engine exhaust going through it.

Pull and test manifolds, replace if needed.

Buy an oil pump that has a tube that gets fed down the dipstick tube.

Run engine. I bet with new manifolds it will be fine.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Come on! Whats a backyard mechanic without a tree?

I think you are confusing "backyard mechanic" with "Shadetree Mechanic"

 

[Bondo]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Originally Posted by imported_John_S
Come on! Whats a backyard mechanic without a tree?

I think you are confusing "backyard mechanic" with "Shadetree Mechanic"

Ayuh,........

Or maybe John's never been to someplace like S.Cal. or Southern Arizona.....

 

[worldmac1]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

If you're doing it yourself, keep us posted - otherwise find a good mechanic, preferably independent!

Well this morning around 6:00est I took my first step at figuring out exactly what's happening. I had an independent marine shop come out and help me load this beast on the trailer. It cranked up and made it's way around to the loading/unloading area with no probs at all. In fact it sounded GOOD!!! It's almost like nothing is wrong with it all, but I know better. ...Anyway, It was 33 degrees this morning and it was raining cats and dogs. I looked as if I went swimming after we were done. The guy picking it up had a broken arm so I did most of the work, but it was all cool. I took a glance at the marina and all eyes were on us...It was as if they were saying..."where are you going? Why are you leaving us?"

I think this shop will be very thorough, and do me right. Their reputation around town is exceptional. I should know something in a couple of days.

I read your post Mercrewser, and I hope you're right! Like I said in my original post, when the smoke started billowing out, we turned the engine off, so maybe it didn't get too hot to crack the block.

Stay tuned for more to come, and thanks again for all of your assistance!

 

[worldmac1]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

***Verdict is In***

...and it's not good!
Looks like me and my wife got took!!! This boat that we thought we were getting at a good deal is now costing us big time. Turns out the block has a big crack on the starboard side, and after careful inspection there was a sealed up area(Possibly JB Weld) on the port side. I'm looking at about 2500 for a new engine, and about 1500 to remove the old motor and dress out the new one at a minimum...Could some of you guys tell me if I'm wasting my time and money with this thing? Should I take my 4grand and buy a bow rider and try to enjoy the water, or should I suck it up and fork out the cabbage? On one hand it makes me sick about spending money I don't have, but on the other, I think about the peace of mind my family and I will have while being out on the water...

Please tell me what you think and what you would do if you were in my situation..

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[MikDee]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Well, Just think about it this way, once you make sure, and get everything checked out (like the exhaust manifolds) and get it all fixed, you should have many more yrs of pleasure with that boat, also as long as, you set it up, & maintain it properly,,, it sounds like you, & your wife, & family really enjoy it, why not get it fixed?,,, unless you want a different type, or size boat? Good Luck, Mike

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

Please tell me what you think and what you would do if you were in my situation..

You need to ask yourself how much you like the boat and how well it suits your needs. If it is a good boat for you and you are generally happy with it, then yeah, go ahead and fix it up. If, on the other hand, you are not really gung-ho about this particular boat, well then, suck up the lesson about getting a boat surveyed before buying it, and move on to a more suitable boat.

My last bit of advice would concern your mechanical abilities versus the depth of your wallet. If you are going to get into boating in such a big way, you either have to have a deep pocket, or educate yourself about all things mechanical and electrical. If you can't do either, then you might as well stick to going to the beach on vacation. It'll be less stressful.
--
Stan

 

[dcg9381]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

$4-$5k for a 24 foot boat, if you were satisified otherwise, stick with it..
A bow rider will be a different experience.

Personally, I'd go after the @#$#@ that failed to disclose a BJ welded block - people like that don't deserve the air they're breathing... Civil claim - after calling to discuss the issue first.

I agree that educating yourself on forums like this is excellent, but there isn't any real substitute for experience - find a good independent mechanic and start slowly...

 

[magster65]

Re: Discouraged, and Overwhelmed newbie:

***Verdict is In***

...and it's not good!
Looks like me and my wife got took!!! This boat that we thought we were getting at a good deal is now costing us big time. Turns out the block has a big crack on the starboard side, and after careful inspection there was a sealed up area(Possibly JB Weld) on the port side. I'm looking at about 2500 for a new engine, and about 1500 to remove the old motor and dress out the new one at a minimum...Could some of you guys tell me if I'm wasting my time and money with this thing? Should I take my 4grand and buy a bow rider and try to enjoy the water, or should I suck it up and fork out the cabbage? On one hand it makes me sick about spending money I don't have, but on the other, I think about the peace of mind my family and I will have while being out on the water...

Please tell me what you think and what you would do if you were in my situation..

Thanks for all of your help!

Tough call... those are nice boats... I had a 23' SD (like yours)... it was great! Your question though, unfortunately, can't be answered by anyone but you (and wifey). If this is the boat you want, it's worth it but if you're leaning toward a different style, it's not.
You mentioned a bow-rider... that's a totally different boat than a Sundancer... so it looks like you have some 'soul searching' to do.
Make a decision and don't look back.