Impellers, why so weak?

dvan1901

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
503
So I've read about impellers failing and falling apart and that many people replace their every other year, or after so many hours. My question is; why can't they manufacture something that lasts a lot longer? Why don't they make them out of stainless steel or something like that, which would be more rugged and last longer? Just wondering...
 

Coors

Captain
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Dec 8, 2006
Messages
3,367
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Just the nature of the rubber beasts.
They wear out, like tires.
 

Bt Doctur

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 29, 2004
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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Just good business, they need to sell replacements.If oil pans ,timing covers,etc. were stainless I`d have no motors to pull.
 

JustJason

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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Things in this world... mechanical, electrical things... Actually have duty cycles.... and life cycles. You need to accept that as fact... and move on.

Even you.... have a life cycle.

They can (the manufactorers) design a pump that will last for 20 years, as long as you promise them you always run it in freshy fresh clean freshwater, with a PH of 7, with no weeds, with no sand, never salt, and with no debris or weeds.
The problem is, the pumps are designed to work for the masses. And unfortunately, the masses are usually dumb and lazy. The pumps are actually fairly durable when you consider what goes through them sometimes.
I've personally seen pumps with 7-800 hours on them, that were run in freshwater in temperate zones. They never froze.
The next biggest thing is, is that the boats (and so the pumps) were actually used. They were run a few times a week. They never had time to sit. Some of the freshwater pumps that i've seen with that many hours don't come out really that bad. They are clearly worn, but not awefull.
I've also seen pumps after a season comepletely toast because the owner runs it in salt twice a month for 3 months and tends to hit the sandbar coming in at low tide. Same owner never flushes with freshwater. Likes to rev his boat in neutral, winterizes late, and loves to troll through kelp beds.

Water pump designs aren't bad at all. And still so, they are improving.

I say, fix the nut behind the helm... before you worry about the nuts under the hatch.
 

mkast

Lieutenant Commander
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Nov 6, 2002
Messages
1,934
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Do a web search for a Globe run dry impellor.
 

Silvertip

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Sep 22, 2003
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28,771
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Tell a customer that he now has a "run dry" impeller and he will run the engine without water and turn it to toast. There is no cure for stupid!
 

dvan1901

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
503
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

CaptJason, I don't see how using hard rubber for an impeller is the boat owners fault and was not the jist of the question. If a manufacture used stainless steel then they would be more durable and last longer no matter what kind of water you ran them in. I also don't think that any engine manufacture is making their sales numbers off of the sale of impellers. Take jet boats for example, yeah it is a different use of the impeller, I get that, but they use a steel impeller and if you check out some of their forums, people have run over all kinds of stuff and not ruined them. If your arugement is that it is because they sit unused for so long, then what I am saying is why don't they make it out of something better and charge more for it initially? If everyone thought things are they way they are and just except it, then nothing would ever get done and innovation would be dead. Just an open discussion here and I don't think the boat owners are at fault for impellers going bad if they were never designed to last more than a couple years in the first place...
 

fyrfightr

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
93
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

The impeller assembly is a positive displacement pump. This means that it will pump air(too clear an air lock). The impeller is in contact with all sides of the housing and is off set so that the rubber fingers flex as it is turned. The water flowing over the impeller cools and lubricates it. A piston pump could be make out of all metal parts, but would cost a lot more to produce and would probable die quicker...
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

The big issue is that the pump must run in both displacement mode and centrifugal mode. Because the drive shaft speed varies from (about) 500rpm to 5000rpm the use of a single mode pump would not work. A displacement pump works well at the low speeds but would destroy itself at high speed. The centrifugal pump work great at high speeds but doesn't pump enough water at low speeds to cool the engine. The only way to make a 'one pump fits all' is to use the current design. Anybody who can come up with a better design, that uses SS or something like that, and is still economical, will make a killing.

Chris.................
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

You have to work hard to kill a GEN II pump (started in 1991)

47b7d700b3127ccebc781746d8e900000036100AaOWLZq3ct2IA



The older GEN I pump was not as good


I would think the engine mounted pumps get more dry runing on startup ON trailered boats because the water has drained out of the intake VS a boat left in the water



Tommays
 

Don S

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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

CaptJason, I don't see how using hard rubber for an impeller is the boat owners fault and was not the jist of the question. If a manufacture used stainless steel then they would be more durable and last longer no matter what kind of water you ran them in.

It's obvious you don't understand how the pumps work.
The blades flex in and mash down to almost no gap between the vanes. This pushes all the water out of between the vanes (and into the engine.) then when they are on the open side, the pull water out of the intake side of the pump. then as the pump turns sume more, the vanes squeeze down some more.

Try that with a stainless steel impeller.

See if this will help you understand the pump a little better than my explanation.
http://seagrant.uaf.edu/bookstore/boatkeeper/water-pumps.pdf
 

QC

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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

To follow on what Jason was saying, an engine that lasts forever is possible too. You just couldn't afford it, so you wouldn't buy it, so nobody makes it . . . ;) Don't be soooo paranoid. The system that we live with called capitalism would quickly replace a crappy pump design with something better if there was something better when all is considered; like cost, materials, application etc. There are few exceptions to this, particularly over a decent time period. These pumps have been around forever because they are the best compromise for the job they have to do . . .
 

dvan1901

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
503
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

DonS, it's obvious you like to make generalizations about people; I do get the principle of the pump and how it works. Again, my question was, is it possible to make it better? Most people think no and that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. If the way it is is the absolute best way, so be it. I was just tossing the question out there.
 

Don S

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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

DonS, it's obvious you like to make generalizations about people;
The generalization was that you suggested using stainless steel because it would put up with all kinds of water, where the rubber wouldn't.

I don't see how using hard rubber for an impeller is the boat owners fault and was not the jist of the question. If a manufacture used stainless steel then they would be more durable and last longer no matter what kind of water you ran them in.

If you knew how the pump worked, you would know that a stainless steel impeller couldn't possibly work. If you did understand how the impeller worked, I don't see how you could possibly suggest SS.
 

JustJason

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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

dvan1901 said:
CaptJason, I don't see how using hard rubber for an impeller is the boat owners fault and was not the jist of the question.

What the heck do you mean by that??? What is exactly the boat owners fault, and what do you mean by the jist of the question?????

dvan1901 said:
Take jet boats for example, yeah it is a different use of the impeller

Your comparing apples to oranges. A jet pump (typically a single stage axial pump) is a propulsion pump, not the same as a positive pressure water pump. Theoretically, a mini jet pump would work. However, it would It would be soooo small that the tolerences would have to be way to tight, and the slightest speck of sand would destroy the pump. Jet pumps have clearence, (space between its impeller and the housing) hence water slips in the pump itself, and therefor do not flow a lot of water for its relative size at low rpm. Impeller driven water pumps (rubber) have 0 clearence, they prime well and fast, and they flow a decent amount of water at low rpm for it's relative size.

If the jist of your question is can they make them better.... sure.... I'd say yes. They can and they will. It's evolution and it's bound to happen sooner or later. However, I don't see a change anytime soon. The pump impeller isn't a bad design considering the crap that gets put through them sometimes.

In case you didn't know, when you own a boat... you are actually expected to service things sometimes.
 

krisnowicki

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Jul 11, 2007
Messages
1,172
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

If the jist of your question is can they make them better.... sure.... I'd say yes. They can and they will. It's evolution and it's bound to happen sooner or later. However, I don't see a change anytime soon.

hahah

and so we wait for a new rubber.... heheh what about Kevlar it would be pretty kick @@@ to have a bullet proof impeller
 

dvan1901

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
503
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

DonS and CaptJason, I guess the one area on the pump that I had the most speculation was the tolerance allowance in the seal between the impeller fins and the housing wall; if it is basically zero then I see how SS would not work as, as CaptJason says, any significant amount of debris could comprimise that seal. I do realize that boats, like anything, need to be maintained. Like the saying goes "a boat is a whole in the water you through money in" how well you maintain the boat determines how much money though. It was just one of those things that I wondered if could be better and it sounds like what we have is the best option right now. I'm cool with that. Thanks for the open discussion!
 

45Auto

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May 31, 2002
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2,842
Re: Impellers, why so weak?

The tolerance between the impellor fins and the housing wall is LESS than 0 :) ! The impellor is actually bigger in diameter than the housing. The impellor fins have to be "folded back" to get them to fit into the housing. As was stated earlier, this allows the pump to function as a positive displacement pump at low RPM and a centrifugal pump at high RPM. You need a flexible material. That's why steel or aluminum won't work.
 

Uraijit

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Feb 5, 2008
Messages
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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

There's no such thing as "less than 0 tolerance". There's no such thing as exactly 0 tolerance either. When the impeller is installed, it touches the housing -- for the most part -- making it pretty close to zero tolerance, but there are lots of tiny gaps that grow and contract as the rubber slips over the surface. Zero tolerance is the most appropriate term.
 

Don S

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Re: Impellers, why so weak?

Uraijit, don't start playing word games with this, it's a waste of time.
When dvan was talking about zero tolerance, he was probably talking about 0 CLEARANCE. Mostly because he didn't realize that the blades had to flex in order to pump water. With a fixed impeller like the engines circulation pump, it couldn't pump water if it wanted to, that is why it's a circulation pump, not a water pressure pump.
 
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