To fix engine or buy used ones...

[marine4003]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

THANKS for all the great responses! I really do appreciate the help and advice!

Here's the new part of the saga.....

The service manager says "the boss" is willing to pay half the labor (my half would be $45 an hour) and I buy the parts.
We're talking new power head for the one, fix the water in the lower unit problem, leaking steering, transom bracket....and whatever.



It means they knowingly sold you a boat without disclosing the problems,BUT..as is ..means they GOTCHA, i would still speak to a lawyer,perhaps if one is involved the dealer will do the right thing,25K is alot of cash,and with no new hours on the meter,you MIGHT have a case???

 

[45Auto]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

It means they knowingly sold you a boat without disclosing the problems

How do you get that conclusion from an offer to pay half the labor? Not trying to be obnoxious, just wondering about the logic involved.

 

[ro_nicu]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I call the dealer who sold it to me. Says NO way they sold it to me like that. They go over EVERYTHING. Tells me he remembers the trial run and says if 1 cylinder was out then the boat NEVER would have gotten up on plane and it would have been VERY obvious that something was wrong.

If the boat has an hour meter I'd bring this matter in front of a judge, ....
Might be the quickest and most affordable way to get yourself on the water.
P.S. Do you have a lemon law in your state???

 

[ezmobee]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I agree. As was mentioned a guy on this forum LOST in court for selling a boat "as is" privately that blew the motor the first time the new owner (a kid) used/abused it. You haven't even used it yet. I would not accept this deal. I'm not even going to accuse the dealer of knowingly selling a broken boat. It is an unfortunate situation but it's the price of being a boat dealer and they should deal with it by fixing the problems or refunding your money. $25k is NOT a project boat.

 

[marine4003]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

How do you get that conclusion from an offer to pay half the labor? Not trying to be obnoxious, just wondering about the logic involved.

Well,its easy..dealer claimed to buyer,boat is in excellent running condition,everything is fine..buyer finds serious problems, dealer HAD to know about problems, so when dealer is called on issues they agree to pay for half.Seems to me they knew all along,and by agreeing to pay some of the damages only confirms it. Had dealer stood ground by there "excellent condition" statement perhaps the service people screwed up...See?

 

[cbavier]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

THANKS for all the great responses! I really do appreciate the help and advice!

Here's the new part of the saga.....

The service manager says "the boss" is willing to pay half the labor (my half would be $45 an hour) and I buy the parts.
We're talking new power head for the one, fix the water in the lower unit problem, leaking steering, transom bracket....and whatever.



It means they knowingly sold you a boat without disclosing the problems,BUT..as is ..means they GOTCHA, i would still speak to a lawyer,perhaps if one is involved the dealer will do the right thing,25K is alot of cash,and with no new hours on the meter,you MIGHT have a case???

I agree they are admitting partial responsibility at the least. It means they knowingly sold you a boat without disclosing the problems. Hire a lawyer! If you had bought the boat from a private individual you would be on your own."Buyer Be Ware" However no matter what your contract states "As IS" or whatever. A Dealer has a Responsibility to back up what he presents and sells for a reasonable amount of time. . A letter from an Attorney is probably all it will take to get action. As far as the soft wood goes the dealer had to be aware of that too. Hire a lawyer!

 

[45Auto]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

Well,its easy..dealer claimed to buyer,boat is in excellent running condition,everything is fine..buyer finds serious problems, dealer HAD to know about problems, so when dealer is called on issues they agree to pay for half.Seems to me they knew all along,and by agreeing to pay some of the damages only confirms it. Had dealer stood ground by there "excellent condition" statement perhaps the service people screwed up...See?

Sorry, I still don't see. I never saw anywhere Elwopo claimed the dealer said the boat was in "excellent" condition. All I saw about the dealer was Elwopo's first post:

When I got it from the dealer they said they had gone all over the engines and everything was ready to go. Showed me a sheet where they had done a compression test even. We took it out on the water for a 15 minute trial and it seemed OK. We only took it to WOT briefly to get it on plane.

That's the only time it's been in the water. Since then I took it to the trailer place and had everything done right. New brakes, tires, actuator, leaf springs). Then I took it to a mechanic to have the engines looked at and have some small stuff fixed.

Sounds like to me he had to have the trailer almost rebuilt (if the trailer maintenance was that bad what would you expect the boat to be like??) and then took it somewhere to another mechanic to have some engine stuff done. Not what I would consider "excellent" condition, and I still can't find anywhere Elwopo said the dealer claimed the boat was in excellent condition. I considered the boat sold "as is" and the dealer was trying to keep a customer happy by paying half the labor costs on defects that weren't there (according to the dealer - documented compression check, etc) when the boat was sold.

 

[elwopo]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I did leave that part out of my initial post....but I can clear it up now...

I was told repeatedly that the boat was in "excellent" condition and "completely ready for blue water today".
"Boat has full electronics, fresh water washdown, salt water washdown, head, sink, hydraulic steering, etc, etc.

When we took the boat on the water they showed me all the stuff that worked. Trim tabs, tilt and trim, salt water wash, depth gauge, vhf radio.....

I was trying to learn everything and did not think to ask about the other stuff.
Head does not work, fresh washdown / sink does not work, didn't look for leaks in steering (it was washed and clean when I got there), rotten transom bracket (everything was painted and clean), gps is toast, macerator does not work, let's just say the list goes on.....

It is my belief that they took this thing on trade, washed it up, and did nothing else...relying on the "as-is" clause.

Cosmetic things don't bother me and I know it is to be expected.

To send me out with NO brakes, a disaster trailer, bad engine, and bad lower unit on the other....really ticks me off (being polite).

And the sales manager with his gold Rolex and diamond markers doesn't make their lack of concern any easier for me....at this moment.

 

[45Auto]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

Thank for the clarification on the dealer's claims.

It is my belief that they took this thing on trade, washed it up, and did nothing else...relying on the "as-is" clause.

Sounds like that's exactly what they did. Wouldn't be surprised if they low-balled the trade in because of all the defects, then cleaned it up and sat there waiting for an unsuspecting buyer. Unfortunately, that's how lots of the salesman type end up with the gold Rolex's and diamonds, and the origin of the old Roman saying "Caveat emptor" - or Buyer Beware!

You're still stuck in a hard place in regards to the boat. If you had plenty of money, sure would be nice to haul it back to the dealer and have it accidently catch on fire in his parking lot .........probably get you some good TV time to express your feelings about them!!

On the other hand, you're out of 25K you probably don't really have to spare. Cheapest way to get the boat going at this point (unless you do it yourself) is take the dealer's "pay half of labor" option, although it would really burn me to give them anything else.

You can always take it to court. The dealer will show up with the pre-sale checklist showing the perfect compression, a factory-certified mechanic stating everything else was great and the boat was in excellent condition, testimony to the check-ride where you were satisfied with the boat, and a bill of sale showing you bought the boat as-is. They will claim they were not aware of the bad transom, but it is a "cosmetic issue" and they have already offered to help you with it and everything else YOU caused after you bought the boat by giving you half-off on all their labor. Good luck getting anything out of the court system. Only ones that will come out ahead there are the lawyers at $200/hour.

I guess you could always put the thing back up for sale and hope for another unsuspecting buyer to come along. Wouldn't be surprised if that happens a lot.

Wish I could give you some useful advice. Unfortunately, it's a little late now that you are stuck with the boat. Good luck, what ever you do!

 

[cbavier]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

Talk to an Attorney. It won't cost you anything to talk to him the first time and get his advice,. He knows the laws of your state and if you have any chance of recourse. He will advise you what steps to take next.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I agre with the some of the posters above and as I was reading through this, couldn't help but believe that either the dealer or even just his mechanic / service person who did the checkout simply didn't do their due dlligence on a boat they took in trade - they assumed that everything was in good order... If things are clearly are as you have said they are (and I do believe you), thenm you're in a position of right. That being said, lawyers cost and take time, thier is also the added issue of having to live through the resentment and frunstration of a court situation. Just read the ordeal of "sold a boat and busted" to get a sense of the life sucking stuff that goes along with it.

Chances are that the dealer also knows he blew it. I don't think he is was intentionally screwing you over, but I do think he screwed up and that some cut corners... and that now he's stuck doing damage control on what from an ethical responsibility is his to own...

that being said, if you agree with most of what I'm saying, perhaps it would be worthwhile to gently, but firmly push back on the seller. Take the boat back to him and let them look at it. take good pics first and document the second mechanic's stuff, but let the seller have a chance to see... if he's a god sort and just made a mistake, you might not have to push very hard...

some people will pony up and do the right thing. It seems to make sense to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him take a look. If you;re on solid ground and he's got a decent reputation but doesn't step up, contact the local btter business bureau, chamber of commerce, etc... it's amazing what peer pressure can do in situations like this. If you have to go this route, the most important thing is to be straight, honest, and firm. Don't get angry or at least don't show it to him, etc.. show him resolve and if he offers to pay for fair, ask him how it is fair that he expects you to pay for any repairs on a boat that he sold you in good condition - you expected him as the expert to know what he was doing when checking it out and he represented to you that he had done so. He did not catch all of these things that were wrong. Ask how it is fair that you should bear the additional costs associated with that failure. and then be quiet... most people when they're wrong, can't find a good answer for that question...

sorry to ramble, good luck with it.

Just my two cents...

 

[cbavier]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I agre with the some of the posters above and as I was reading through this, couldn't help but believe that either the dealer or even just his mechanic / service person who did the checkout simply didn't do their due dlligence on a boat they took in trade - they assumed that everything was in good order... If things are clearly are as you have said they are (and I do believe you), thenm you're in a position of right. That being said, lawyers cost and take time, thier is also the added issue of having to live through the resentment and frunstration of a court situation. Just read the ordeal of "sold a boat and busted" to get a sense of the life sucking stuff that goes along with it.

Chances are that the dealer also knows he blew it. I don't think he is was intentionally screwing you over, but I do think he screwed up and that some cut corners... and that now he's stuck doing damage control on what from an ethical responsibility is his to own...

that being said, if you agree with most of what I'm saying, perhaps it would be worthwhile to gently, but firmly push back on the seller. Take the boat back to him and let them look at it. take good pics first and document the second mechanic's stuff, but let the seller have a chance to see... if he's a god sort and just made a mistake, you might not have to push very hard...

some people will pony up and do the right thing. It seems to make sense to give him the benefit of the doubt and let him take a look. If you;re on solid ground and he's got a decent reputation but doesn't step up, contact the local btter business bureau, chamber of commerce, etc... it's amazing what peer pressure can do in situations like this. If you have to go this route, the most important thing is to be straight, honest, and firm. Don't get angry or at least don't show it to him, etc.. show him resolve and if he offers to pay for fair, ask him how it is fair that he expects you to pay for any repairs on a boat that he sold you in good condition - you expected him as the expert to know what he was doing when checking it out and he represented to you that he had done so. He did not catch all of these things that were wrong. Ask how it is fair that you should bear the additional costs associated with that failure. and then be quiet... most people when they're wrong, can't find a good answer for that question...

sorry to ramble, good luck with it.

Just my two cents...

GREAT response TIM I agree ,
Lawyers are always last resort but the first, initial consultation is always free

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

One thing I have learned from this post and others should to. Maybe have a post sea trial inspection done by the dealer. This could be more important than a pre sea trial inspection. Like Capt Ron from the movie "If anything is going to happen, its going to happen out there"

Good Luck and keep up posted on any news.........SS

 

[cbavier]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

One thing I have learned from this post and others should to. Maybe have a post sea trial inspection done by the dealer. This could be more important than a pre sea trial inspection. Like Capt Ron from the movie "If anything is going to happen, its going to happen out there"

Good Luck and keep up posted on any news.........SS

NO! You have PAY yourself a Marine Surveyor and then have a Marine Survey Sea Test. Not one the dealer chooses but one you choose so he is working for you and not the dealer!. It costs a couple hundred bucks for a surveyor but it can save you thousands. Some surveyors may do both land and the Sea trial. But the important thing is you hire him not the dealer. So he is working for you not the Dealer or seller. there is a whole list available in your area. A surveyor will thoroughly inspect the whole boat looking for any problems including wet Foam and rotten stringers Etc. Etc. just type Marine Surveyor into Google and walla a whole list will come up. They are State Certified.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

If you've got a copy of the sheck out sheet he showed you, and it says that the compression was checked, etc... and then without ever hitting the water with it you have documentation of that original checkout sheet being in "error", I will tell you that judgest typically tend to frown on that sort of thing and generally take a dim view of individuals who pull such things. As is means as it is, and includes the description that he gave you. It means that you can assume that he was telling the truth and especially if you have the documentation (if you don't have it, might try to find a way to get a copy of their standard chsckout procedure, etc...) you have grounds to win in court if he clearly misrepresented the condition of the boat. He likely knows this and even if he's not a stand up guy and has his head up his you know what, chances are he can be pushed into doing the right thing or perhaps even to refunding your money so you can go elsewhere and use what you learned this time around to make a better purchase. ps know what you mean on raising kiddo... I'm a single parent raising a 13 year old daughter... This also sounds like a great opportunity to show your son how to deal with difficult business / personal interactions head on... not that you don't already do that in many other areas, etc... have a great day!

 

[AguaSki]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

Let me say in advance that I know I'm a friggin idiot ... If you absolutely can't resist the urge to blast me then go ahead.

Those were my initial thoughts until I read your comments about your son. You sound like a great Dad. It appears that your son is really excited about the boating/fishing thing, so hang in there. You have received some good advice in this thread on how to proceed. I recommend the path that will get you on the water the quickest, and keep your son from becoming disappointed in something that he is clearly excited about. The "Sold A Boat And It Busted" thread shows how long these disputes can go on. Yes you could fight this thing for months, but the eventual conclusion is anyones guess. In the worst case your son becomes the victim because of the missed opportunity to go fishing with Dad. Whatever the final cost may be, it won't be as great as the missed father/son time. That is why I am recommending that you find a way to get out on the water with your son as soon as possible. If you can agree upon a fair and quick settlement with the dealer then great, but don't let this thing drag on forever. The water is calling you and your son this season.

 

[Boatin Bob]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

Showed me a sheet where they had done a compression test even.

Not to nitpick on words or anything but did this sheet specifically list the readings for each cylinder or was it just a check list showing they had done a compression test? My point is they could have done the test, saw the bad cylinder but all they told you was a comprssion test was done!

 

[arboldt]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

You have the dealer checklist, and another list of defects from the other mechanic, and zero difference on the hours meter from purchase to now. One is obviously wrong, but without further verfication, can you 100% know which is correct?

I'd take it back to the dealer along with a copy of the dealer's checklist and the other mechanic's evaluation. I'd ask the dealer to verify its condition according to their checklist, based on not having used it. If possible, I'd want to witness the compression test -- actually, I'd verify the compression test and transom weakness myself before I took it back to the dealer.

If the dealer verifies everything's as he claimed, ask him to show you. If he does say there are some differences, then insist he bring it to the condition he stated when you took possession. If he resists, then consult an attorney. Depending on your state's laws, this may or may not exceed the jurisdiction for small-claims court -- the lawyer should tell you that.

In any case, from here out, your dealings should be with the dealership owner / manager, not a salesman or service tech.

 

[Nandy]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I just dont get it. You bought a $25k boat "as is" and did not have a marine surveyor inspect it.... Go ahead and sue and you can end up with just the lawyer bill. They sold it to you "AS IS", you did not do your part of getting it inspected by someone that is an expert. I think you loose. I would consider getting their offer, I dont see you getting anything better. Sorry...

 

[jonesg]

Re: To fix engine or buy used ones...

I believe a lawyer will rely on "implied warranty' in spite of "as is" , the dealer doesn't get the same return protection as private individuals.

I would talk to a lawyer, and make it clear you don't need $10K in legals, a scare letter, requesting all information from the dealer (discovery )might very well wake them up.
I would also instruct the lawyer NOT to tell the dealer he must only communicate through your lawyer, they (lawyers) love doing that because once the principles are taken out of the communication loop its just the 2 lawyers and the bills will soar. Set a limit.

I would also talk to the previous owner, find out what they disclosed to the dealer, the dealer could have driven down the purchase price based on the damage, in which case you've got him. !