Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

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zacheus007

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I have a 23' Penn Yan Sportfisherman that is very slow for it's size and 350 motor. I was told Tunnel Drives were slow but I figured it would at least get to 20mph. The wake behind to boat is huge which I am guessing is not right? I have played with the trim tabs to see if I could fix it but it hasn't really help.

Right now, half throttle I get 15mph out of the boat, and anything past that I just get more RPM's and gas loss, but no more speed. Basically half throttle is as fast as the boat will go.

Anyone have any suggestions on this?
 

tommays

Admiral
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Jul 4, 2004
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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

transmission sliping is a possable cause


A NON contact tack on the final drive shaft could be used to test this at the point the motor RPM keeps going up and the boat speed stays the same
 

zacheus007

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I dont think I explained very well.

The wake will get larger, the prop will spin faster but the boat doesn't go any faster, maybe hit 16 but never gone over 16.

Does that make more sense, or the problems still stay consistent with symptoms?
 

tommays

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

"If a dirty bottom slows you down what do think it does to your BOAT"


If your SURE there is no sliping than your in to is it clean and did it ever go fast,what does the prop look like (bent blade)
 

MikDee

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

It Don't seem right? Maybe your prop is too small in diameter, or the blades are bent out of shape?
 

zacheus007

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I am almost positive the prop is not bent and I believe it is one of the heavy duty brass ones, so I am not getting much flex. As far as the diameter, I might be able to go a little bigger with the prop but more than an inch and I think I would touch the inner walls of the tunnel.

The bottom paint is flaking in a couple of spots, I didn't think that would cause too much of a disturbance in performance?
 

reelfishin

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

What your experiencing is why most people avoid tunnel drives. It's nearly impossible to get 'clean' water to the prop.
I had a 1974 23' Penn Yan Avenger Sportfisher with the fly bridge and my best speed was about 15 mph with the wind and current in my favor.
I tried everything from larger and cupped props, a higher performance, stroker engine, and trim tabs with no real improvement. Trim tabs will let you level or balance out the boat but do little to help the cavitation problems you get with that tunnel drive. I kept mine for only a few seasons, I got tired of the added fuel and lack of speed. Other than that I loved the boat and the layout but I'm REALLY glad these days that I sold it with fuel being as high as it is now.

The advantages to the tunnel drive is that it can run super shallow and their easier to trailer when the need arises. Other than that a tunnel drive is a handicap. I've owned three boats with a tunnel drive setup, the Penn Yan was probably the worst but I also wasn't too fond of the way the flybridge would catch the wind giving the boat a top heavy feeling on windy days.

What I did notice on mine was that as soon as the hull started to lift or attempt to plane out, the wake got severe and I would get all sorts of noise and vibration which was caused by the water turbulence within the tunnel area. A larger, cupped prop helped, but not by much. The larger prop increased the level of vibration or noise below. I had first thought that I had an out of balance prop but after three props, we pretty much figured that it was due to the tunnel design. Mine would put out a huge wake with a swirling center rooster tail coming from the tunnel and prop. I found that with a slightly larger prop and staying between 2800 and 3200 RPM was my best bet.
The guy that bought my boat converted it to a diesel, I never did hear how that worked out. I sold mine about 9 years ago.
 

zacheus007

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

That is kind of what I figured. I do trailer the boat and I do take it in the shallows so for now this boat is good for me. Actually tonight I am doing some engineering to put a 15HP Kicker on it so I will not have to listen to 350 all day or burn the gas. It is not so bad when I am out on a Maine Lake doing some trolling but when I want to get out to the ledges off the coast, a 16 mile jaunt is fairly cumbersome. Thank you for the input!
 

External Combustion

Chief Petty Officer
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Aug 21, 2007
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608
Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

Tunnel drives were designed for displacement and semi-displacement speeds. Look at the hull from the transom to about a third forward. You will see that it is not flat enough to support the hull as it "skips" across the water. Also, when you get to the boundry line between semi-displacement and planing speeds the tunnel will have enough suction in it, that any gap between the tunnel and the surface of the water will allow air to replace most of the water in the hull. Cavatation will result every time.

When you put more power at the end of semi-displacement speeds, the rear of the hull is not supported by the water and it falls into the trough of air until its hits the surface of the water. Bigger waves result, but not more speed. All of the additional horsepower is used up trying to push the boat uphill to overcome the trough.

Displacement hulls do the same, but at lower speeds.
 

180shabah

Rear Admiral
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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

Never understood why so many of those boats had V8's in them, when a small 4cyl would have been a better match.
 

MikDee

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

Just curious, would it be feasible, or efficient, to close up part of the tunnel, leaving just a water intake port at the front, and a matching size exhaust (prop thrust) port directly at the rear, creating a sort of jet drive out of the tunnel? I would guess you'd probably have to move the rudder to the transom also.
 

nallimon

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

What exactly is your engine rpm's at WOT, wide open throttle? And, what is the drive ratio of the transmission? That is what makes the thing work properly. I read Trailer Boats magazine where they compare engine performance and fuel consumption. With a properly fitted prop, most outboards get best economy around 4,500 rpm's and most inboard/outdrives at around 3,500 rpm's.

My son just bought a 24' flying bridge with a 351W. Previous owned said that the boat never went above 20mph and 3,000 rpms. He also never tuned the engine in the three years that he owned it. With the engine tuned properly the WOT is now only 3,300rpm but the speed went to 28mph and no cavitation. Worst thing is economy, there is none. At 2,800 - 3,300 rpm's he only gets 1MPG. I believe with the right prop tached out around 4,300 the speed and economy should improve to 3mpg.

When I was in the Coast Guard, we had two 30' Penn Yan's. The pilot said that they had recently ordered a "fairing", if my memory serves me right, that installs at the rear of the tunnel where it "flares," that would reduce cavitation and add about 15% performance and economy. A veteran inboard mechanic with Penn Yan experience suggested manufacturing a "lip" made of bondo or fiberglass installed where the tunnel "flares" would reduce spray and cavitation and also switching to a 4-blade Ambush prop. I would like to know who makes such a "fairing" or if anyone has ever heard of such a thing.
 

PY-Sully

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

To the folks that are supposed to know it all about Penn Yans, you haven't a clue.

The single biggest reason that a Penn Yan with a tunnel drive acts like I have read above is; the original engine was replaced with and engine of different rotation. The running gear rudder, strut and even the prop is set up opposite of the way boat was designed.

Second, you have a rough bottom, and are losing hull efficiency due to roughness.

It angers me greatly when some folks want to reengineer something they know nothing about. This is the hull design that was used in Vietnam on many of the river boats, and they are planing hulls, not semi displacement.

You have to take into consideration that these are bery heavily built hulls. I will agree the tunnel is not the most efficient combination when looking for fuel efficiency or subsonic speeds. Propped properly, maintained properly, they are about as good at any of the above description as any standard inboard with a gasoline engine in it.

I can take my 24' Penn Yan in 14" of water and not hit bottom, I cannot do this with my 16' skiff with the engine down. The Penn Yan has some trade offs, speed for shallow depth capability, extreme comfort in heavy water, for lower gunnels and poling depths of the bottom.

To my knowlege there is no one boat that has so many inherent options available to it, as it came off the showroom floor. And to boot, mine is 33 years old, safe in 5' to 6' seas plus, and not beat you to death doing it.

In my years I have seen all kinds of hairbrained concoctions hooked up on this boat. My only opinion of 99% of these was there were no advantages gained by making these changes.

If you want a speed boat get a Fountain with 4 - 250 HP across the back. If you want speed in shallow water get one of those wave maker things.

I seriously have nothing against either displacement or semi displacement powered boats for fuel economy you will have to go an awful long way to beat them. But you lose the off the floor shallow depth operation.

My Penn Yan, will get 30 MPH at 4400 RPM's everyday all day until the gas runs out. I can get 3 mpg at 3000 RPM's and 20 or so MPH I can stay on plane at almost 2200 RPM's never checked the speed, when coming off a higher plane speed. I can even adjust the speed and trim tabs to ride the swells coming into shore. Lot's of fun to do. And if you become proficient at it, can be an effective fuel saving technique.

Straight inboards do not back where you point them. They back almost straight with some torque correction. When you become proficient backing one, you are getting started towards becoming a coxwain.

Yes the 23' Flying bridge feels top heavy to some. It is a very short boat for a FB, actual length 22'8" Again it is a trade off, Penn Yan did make a center console boat, not that puppy can go faster than you can control, and because of the reduced weight is better on fuel economy at higher speeds.

I would suggest that those folks that think they know it all own and operate a PY for a goodly number of years before knocking something they have no clue about. Marine mechanics that are converted automobile mechanics with little or no undersatnding about the beast they are working on.

We do have 2 sites of our own, if you care to learn about this great boat. If you aren't willing to learn then don't bother.

Most of the guys that have repropped use OJ or Acme props, and all Penn Yan Boats 24" and less, have Borg Warner 1:1 Velvet drive reversers.
 

jaxnjil

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

wow its good thing for zacheus yu came along
to bad you didnt answer 2 months ago
 

PY-Sully

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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

Our 2 Penn Yan Boat sites have been active for more than ten years. Too bad he didn't try to find someone who did have knowledge of this type of boat. This is like asking questions about rocket science on a street corner.
 

capquest

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Aug 10, 2008
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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I've posted a picture on the "post your boat pic" thread.

My '78 23' PY Avenger Sportsman (No FB) will cruise at 3,000 RPM at 22 KTS getting about 2.5 n/mi (burning 9.5 Gal/hr) per gallon depending on sea state and load. WFO @ 4200 is 34 Kts which is way to fast for me in a small boat at age 66.

Clean bottom (lives on a boat lift), well tuned engine (350 cu/in 255 HP GM small block Mercruiser) AND a OJ 4 blade 13 x 12 cup.

Compare that with a 24' Sea Ray, Bayliner, Cruisers etc with a big block and alpha one out drive. AND the PY will handle a seaway that the others will not even think about going out in.

When I go out St. Augustine inlet in an Easterly wind on an ebb current the center console 24's with one or two outboards can't stay with me. Of course once we get to clean water they're 15 kts faster.

However, on the way home after 8 hours in the Florida sun while I'm driving from inside the cabin under my top, behind a glass windshield, sipping a cold Gatorade they're still out there in the sun and spray.

All in all I find it to be a fine small boat.

BTW. Before I re proped it and got the engine and bottom squared away it did about what you guys are saying. basically a "sea slug"
 

reelfishin

Captain
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Messages
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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I actually liked the tunnel drive feature up until I had to take a longer trip with the one I had. It was at that time I decided to move up into a larger boat with twin engines. But at todays costs, I'm glad their both gone. At $5+ per gallon at the docks, I'm happy with my 18' aluminum boat.

The Penn Yan was great in the back bays and rivers, it was when I had to get it up and moving for a couple hour run out to where the fish were that the tunnel drive and wind catching issues became a problem. It was also well underpowered.
I loved the boat itself, it was probably my most favorite of all of my former boats. I'd have kept it if I had a place to just keep it docked but rising costs ended that and the fact that to find good fishing, I was running several hours out and back each way. It would cost me $500 or more per day these days.
A boat today has to be far more efficient to be affordable, and for me, now, it has to be easier to trailer. No more 1 ton trucks, no more 5 ton boats.
But all in all they were good boats and I would buy a Penn Yan product in a minute if I found one that suited my current needs.
 

Rick K

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Oct 6, 2003
Messages
235
Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I am interested in a 27' Penn Yan and I am not familiar with tunnel drives, what are the web sites? I would love to read more about this.
 

James210s

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May 12, 2011
Messages
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Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I use a tunnel drive in my 21' hallet closed bow, and get it up to 60mph, but I do get a knocking sound out of the drive itself, any opinions?
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Tunnel Drive Speed and Wake?

I use a tunnel drive in my 21' hallet closed bow, and get it up to 60mph, but I do get a knocking sound out of the drive itself, any opinions?

James please start your own thread. This one is three years old and not really related.
 
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