premature rust?

[guiltypleasure]

I have a brand new Key West 211. It's great.
However I've only had it for about a month and I'm already seeing some rust spots where the stainless meets the fiberglass. It's not doing it everywhere, only on the handle above the swim ladder, the rail at the stern between the jump seats and on the hinges for the trim tabs.

I just took it in for the 20 hr break-in period service and talked to my dealer about it. He said this is not uncommon and there's nothing I can do but clean it with a special rust remover.

I find this really difficult to believe since a) it's not happening on the entire boat so why should the metals be any different and b) we just paid a LOT of money for this boat and it's got rust on it before I even made my first payment?

Is this kind of thing to be expected? Does Key West typically have this problem? Any input is appreciated.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: premature rust?

We are seeing a lot of questionable Stainless Steel here in the last couple of years, even in the products marked “Made in Germany”. It may be “Made in Germany”, but the German steel is not of the quality it once was.

We are also seeing a lot of import products marked as Stainless Steel that are spot rusting even before it has any direct water contact. I suspect it is recycled steel out of the East and is being mixed with cheap steel. You will see holes rust in the steel with the surrounding material still looking new, and this is not normal.

None of the steel I am referring to, has been exposed to salt water.

I have some Stainless Steel pieces that I pulled off my boat that was installed when new, and they still look new after over 30 years of neglect.

I think the manufacture is just using cheap parts out of Asia somewhere in the production of your boat, and it is low quality Stainless, if it is really Stainless.

There is not much your dealer can say other than what he did. What do you expect him to say, the product he sells is crap.

It is the manufacture that is responsible for this, but you didn't buy a product from them you bought from the dealer. The dealer is the customer of the manufacture. You are the customer of the dealer.

Is rusting new Stainless Steel normal, it didn't used to be, but it is now. Welcome to the short term thinking world of corporate cost cutting, & profit increasing.

 

[Kev144]

Re: premature rust?

I agree with snapping turtle. Boats these days use cheap materials unless you are going really high class like Baja or Fountain etc. It's a shame but people demand cheaper vehicles and they cant produce excellent quality and sell to the public at a loss so there has to be drawbacks and unfortunately it's things like these.

 

[haskindm]

Re: premature rust?

All stainless steel is not created equal. One of the things that differentiates higher cost boats with entry level boats is the quality of the metal fittings. Some boats use aluminum or zemack (sp?)fittings. Higher cost boats use lower quality stainless, and the quallity of the stainless USUALLY increases as the cost of the boat increases. Some manufacturers are very quick to tell you the grade of the "stainless" that they use. Grady White for example is very quick to tell you that they use only 316 Grade Stainless (they indicate that most manufacturers use cheaper grade 306 stainless. I believe that stainless flatware uses a grade in excess of 400). Many manufacturers just use the generic term "stainless". That said, almost all "stainless steel" will still corrode or rust to some extent, especially when used in a salt water environment. This is especially true at the ends of the steel where it is cut and the meets the fiberglass. The good news is that this is only surface corrosion and it would take a lifetime for it to "rust out", where regular steel would rust through in a very short time. The bad news is that it will stain the fiberglass and you will need to clean it occasionally. Grady White included a tube of "Flitz" metal polish in my "owners kit" and recommends that the stainless be cleaned and polished occasionally. Unfortunately almost nothing is maintenance free in the harsh marine environment. For more information on stainless go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: premature rust?

your profile does not say where you are from. are boating in salt water, sure sounds like it. and it is not getting washed down after every use.

 

[dingbat]

Re: premature rust?

We are seeing a lot of questionable Stainless Steel here in the last couple of years, even in the products marked ?Made in Germany?. It may be ?Made in Germany?, but the German steel is not of the quality it once was.

We are also seeing a lot of import products marked as Stainless Steel that are spot rusting even before it has any direct water contact. I suspect it is recycled steel out of the East and is being mixed with cheap steel. You will see holes rust in the steel with the surrounding material still looking new, and this is not normal.

None of the steel I am referring to, has been exposed to salt water.

I have some Stainless Steel pieces that I pulled off my boat that was installed when new, and they still look new after over 30 years of neglect.

I think the manufacture is just using cheap parts out of Asia somewhere in the production of your boat, and it is low quality Stainless, if it is really Stainless.

There is not much your dealer can say other than what he did. What do you expect him to say, the product he sells is crap.

It is the manufacture that is responsible for this, but you didn't buy a product from them you bought from the dealer. The dealer is the customer of the manufacture. You are the customer of the dealer.

Is rusting new Stainless Steel normal, it didn't used to be, but it is now. Welcome to the short term thinking world of corporate cost cutting, & profit increasing.

This is just a bunch of none sense.

I've worked in the steel industry for the past 30 years. We make the instruments that measure the materials composition, shape, thickness, flatness and atomic structure in the steel mill as it?s being produced. We also do the ladle analyst before the materials come out of the ladle so I see the quality on the entire process.

The quality of materials being made today makes those in the past look primitive. To insinuate that corners are being cut in the quality of the materials is showing ones ignorance of the materials and the industry.

As for the Chinese steel industry, the Chinese buy nothing but the best when it comes to steel making equipment. We sell more high end analytical equipment to China than the rest of the world combined so that should tell you something about China's commitment to steel quality.

Most ?rusting? of stainless is caused by the materials not being passivated correctly after fabrication. When stainless is fabricated particles of Fe can become imbedded in the materials from the machine and grinding processes. Good fabrication practices dictate the parts be passivated, (dipped in a acid cleaning solution) to remove the Fe from the materials. If this process is skipped or done improperly you?ll get surface rust on what is otherwise good stainless materials.

What this guy is experiencing with his boat is something different. Stainless steel is stainless because the materials reacts with the oxygen in the air to form a layer of oxide layer on its outer surface. You take away the air, as in water trapped between the surface of the material and the surface of the boat, and the end result is ?staining?. This is the reason why deck hardware is ?bedded? and should be rebedded when this condition occurs.

This problem is easily resolved by removing the hardware in question and using a bedding material between the hardware and the fiberglass on the boat to keep water from getting between the two surfaces..

 

[fishmen111]

Re: premature rust?

From your descriptions, you might want to verify that the fasteners are also stainless. I have seen more than one zinc screw where ss should have been, causing the appearance that the whole piece is corroding.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: premature rust?

This is just a bunch of none sense.

I've worked in the steel industry for the past 30 years. We make the instruments that measure the materials composition, shape, thickness, flatness and atomic structure in the steel mill as it’s being produced. We also do the ladle analyst before the materials come out of the ladle so I see the quality on the entire process.

The quality of materials being made today makes those in the past look primitive. To insinuate that corners are being cut in the quality of the materials is showing ones ignorance of the materials and the industry.

As for the Chinese steel industry, the Chinese buy nothing but the best when it comes to steel making equipment. We sell more high end analytical equipment to China than the rest of the world combined so that should tell you something about China's commitment to steel quality.

Most “rusting” of stainless is caused by the materials not being passivated correctly after fabrication. When stainless is fabricated particles of Fe can become imbedded in the materials from the machine and grinding processes. Good fabrication practices dictate the parts be passivated, (dipped in a acid cleaning solution) to remove the Fe from the materials. If this process is skipped or done improperly you’ll get surface rust on what is otherwise good stainless materials.

What this guy is experiencing with his boat is something different. Stainless steel is stainless because the materials reacts with the oxygen in the air to form a layer of oxide layer on its outer surface. You take away the air, as in water trapped between the surface of the material and the surface of the boat, and the end result is “staining”. This is the reason why deck hardware is “bedded” and should be rebedded when this condition occurs.

This problem is easily resolved by removing the hardware in question and using a bedding material between the hardware and the fiberglass on the boat to keep water from getting between the two surfaces..

Thanks for the compliment. The standard of replies here goes from one extreme to the other. Yours would have been a good one, but you ruined it with your opening statement.

I am closely connected to the Airline & Automobile industry and also have many friends here who maintain & procure equipment for commercial airlines (Lufthansa Technik AG) for a living. I also have a very old friend who's family (third generation) is in the business of suppling the aviation industry (both U.S. Military and Commercial) in the States with fasteners.

All say that there is a growing problem of counterfeit & false marked products that they are receiving is reaching proportions they have never seen before, and they are coming for the most part, out of Asia. If the airline and automobile industries are having sourcing problems, then so is the boating industry.

Suppliers are not local anymore, and procurement is made using the lowest bidder method. The lowest bidder is unfortunately often long gone when the problems start to occur, and quality problems are occurring.

I didn't say the Chinese can't produce quality, they can compete with anyone in any sector now. It is a matter of quality control that is a problem, and when budgets are cut, these controls are often cut along with everything else.

Nor did I say there are not solutions, to rust stains, on a one month old boat. I am saying it shouldn't be the case.

What woulda, shoulda, and coulda been done is all good and fine, but ...

 

[tommays]

Re: premature rust?

Based on what i pay for 304L and 316L SS tube with a complaince certification compared to the much cheeper price i see on a lot of bow rail 304 and 316 tubing there is some monkey stuff going



And yes we use nitric acid for passivation after welding and polishing (and only use rod with certs)

 

[dingbat]

Re: premature rust?

Based on what i pay for 304L and 316L SS tube with a complaince certification compared to the much cheeper price i see on a lot of bow rail 304 and 316 tubing there is some monkey stuff going



And yes we use nitric acid for passivation after welding and polishing (and only use rod with certs)

You?re paying dearly for that piece of paper. The cost difference between 316 and 316L at the mill level is minimal.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: premature rust?

SnappingTurtle,
All of what you contend can be true. But what you contend might not be the manufactureres fault.
It could be the two or three middle men inbetween that are quoting one thing and supplying something different.
If an end user really wants to build with good stuff, he should take measures to recieve the good stuff.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the cheap stuff.

 

[ncs2929]

Re: premature rust?

I do not intend to open a can of worms but, we were in Hawaii a few years ago and stopped by a boat marina/shop and they were rebuilding a wood hulled sail boat. They were chinking and replacing hull boards(don't know what real name is) but they were using bronze screws and I ask why not stainless?? His reply was look at the word. STAIN-LESS not rust proof. Makes sense to me. But no I don't think you should see stains already.

Nels

 

[dingbat]

Re: premature rust?

Thanks for the compliment. The standard of replies here goes from one extreme to the other. Yours would have been a good one, but you ruined it with your opening statement.

I am closely connected to the Airline & Automobile industry and also have many friends here who maintain & procure equipment for commercial airlines (Lufthansa Technik AG) for a living. I also have a very old friend who's family (third generation) is in the business of suppling the aviation industry (both U.S. Military and Commercial) in the States with fasteners.

All say that there is a growing problem of counterfeit & false marked products that they are receiving is reaching proportions they have never seen before, and they are coming for the most part, out of Asia. If the airline and automobile industries are having sourcing problems, then so is the boating industry.

I'm sorry you took offense to my first statement but I get tired of seeing these types of acquisitions. Most have no idea what they are talking about other than hear say and assumptions.

Yes, there are some counterfeits or miss labeled materials floating around but this is expected in such a large market place. Just as there are counterfeit sneakers and watches floating around in the market place.

If you buy direct from a reputable mill or suppliers instead of buying your materials from ?spot? sources your changes of getting counterfeit materials is next to nil. You will have instances where you ordered 304 and got 316 instead do to tracking errors during production but this is expected when moving such massive quantities of materials. The use of alloy analyzers on all incoming materials would eliminate these problems for the most part.

Most of these types of problems stem from misapplication of a product, improper installation prep or manufacturers cutting corners on their product. Case in point, I see a lot of boat manufacturers now taunting the use of stainless hardware on their boats. A lot of them use 304 stainless for economics reasons. Well 304 Stainless in a marine environment is a misapplication of the material. If they don?t properly ?bed? the material during installation and you trap water between the fitting the boat you have yet another problem.

Do you blame these problems on the manufacturer of the stainless or do you put blame on the engineers and production staff of the boat company for your problems?

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: premature rust?

SnappingTurtle,
All of what you contend can be true. But what you contend might not be the manufactureres fault.
It could be the two or three middle men inbetween that are quoting one thing and supplying something different.
If an end user really wants to build with good stuff, he should take measures to recieve the good stuff.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the cheap stuff.

Hi Jeeperman.

I agree with the first part 100%.

With the second part I respectfully disagree, corporate procurement departments are forced to do just that. The cheapest bid gets the contract. Whether or not what is delivered, is also what was promised by the winning/cheapest bidder is another story.

The airline industry double, triple, quadruple checks to make sure the specs of the parts delivered, meet the specs of what was outsourced, and they still receive low quality falsely mark goods occasionally. They do so because they will be held criminally responsible for any accidents if they don't.

I don't think the boating industry follows the same quality standards, nor could they afford to, but some minimum standards are, or should be expected. As it stands now, when they receive poor quality outsourced material, it is just quietly passed on to the buyer.

It is about accountability, and the boating industry, as in many other industries, just does not feel accountable for what they produce anymore.

For a peek behind the curtains of the corporate boating industry have a look at this post:

“Defective boats spur congressional action”.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=266003

 

[dingbat]

Re: premature rust?

I do not intend to open a can of worms but, we were in Hawaii a few years ago and stopped by a boat marina/shop and they were rebuilding a wood hulled sail boat. They were chinking and replacing hull boards(don't know what real name is) but they were using bronze screws and I ask why not stainless?? His reply was look at the word. STAIN-LESS not rust proof. Makes sense to me. But no I don't think you should see stains already.

Nels

Stainless is not "stainless". Stainless steel depends on oxygen to form a protective barrier of oxide in its surface for protection. You take away the oxygen as in water trapped between the fitting the the hull and you get surface rust.

You could drop a stainless steel sink in a lake with a lot of rich oxygenated water and it will still be there a few million years from now.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: premature rust?

I'm sorry you took offense to my first statement but I get tired of seeing these types of acquisitions.

It was just the first line.

I think in most cases employees of these companies want to produce the best product the can possibly produce. These employees take pride in the products they produce, and want be proud of the company they work for. I support them 100%.

It is cost cutting at the top, that are causing these cuts in quality on the line.

It is the executive level that I blame, not the designers, the engineers, the teams of people that are there to market the products, not those that are actually producing these products, or the dealers that sell the products.

They all want to be proud of what they build, and the owners that buy these products want to be proud of what they bought.

 

[fdmsiv]

Re: premature rust?

I have a question about stainless and this seems like the perfect thread. Why does stainless rust when no O2 is present.

This is what I understand. Stainless oxidizes (sort of like rust) and forms a protective barrier. When O2 is removed, why does that barrier break down. What de-oxidizes the surface of the material?

Just curious, was thinking about oxidation and whatnot (rust) and I just can't seem to get my mind around the idea that something just un-rust itself

 

[dingbat]

Re: premature rust?

The easy answer is that the chromium in the steel that combined with oxygen to form a thin, invisible layer of chrome-containing oxide. This layer is only a few atoms thick due in part to the ability of the chromium atoms and oxide atoms to pack together tightly.

This layer protects the steel underneath and has a unique self-healing ability. Should the layer become scratched or cut, the newly exposed steel will form another protective area with oxygen in the air. It is for this reason that stainless steels need an oxygen-rich environment.


Technically pitting and corrosion in stainless steel is triggered at the atomic level by chemical reactions within the variations and deficiencies in the microstructure of the material.

I?m not sure how technical you are but here is some information on the subject.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-explain-why-st
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?articleID=1177