Grayhound Beheading

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

What I think makes a lot more sense is for more people to carry tazers. Had the bus driver had one, and had he been trained in dealing with such a situation, this assault could have been stopped very quickly.

Because it just HAS to be said... Don't taze me bro!


Getting back to the issue, it comes down to a matter of policy. To quote the famous saying that is often attributed to Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Sure, backing away from a criminal might preserve your life a little longer, but it leaves the world just a little worse off for it. Imagine for a second, if every time a criminal wanted to commit a crime, they faced a mortal fight? There would be nearly zero crime in very short order. That is why our country fights terrorists. Violent criminals are nothing more than personal terrorists, and the correct policy for the government concerning national terrorists, is also the correct police for individuals facing personal terrorists. If I die doing that, so be it. I would rather my son grow up knowing his dad did the right thing when it really counted, than to have to live with the shame of knowing I put myself above others, and selfishly let them be victimized while I did nothing to stop it.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

You're still not getting it. No one let anyone kill anyone else. The guy was stabbed in the chest while he was sleeping. Nobody was going to save him.

Unless stabbed directly in the heart, a person can survive multiple deep chest wounds.

As to whether we have smarter people than me running this country, I'd reply but that would be political, wouldn't it?

Not really, because that's something that every political party agrees on. Not one politician in any party has suggested giving up fighting terrorists.

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Jay It's ironic you should mention Tasers. As you may be aware, this awful incident happened in Canada and in Canada there has been quite a bit of discussion going on in the media about whether the police should be using Tasers the way they do.

We had a fellow die last year at Vancouver Airport after being Tasered by police. You may have seen the video footage on the news, the fellow just arrived in Canada from Germany, he spoke limited english and was throwing furniture around after waiting in a secure area for hours. His Mother was there earlier to pick him up but she was told he had not arrived so she returned to Kelowna (several hours drive).

I'm not sure what my point is, but it seems there are no easy solutions to preventing tragedies like this.

God only knows what I would have done if I was on that bus, but I suspect I might have run for it too.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Because it just HAS to be said... Don't taze me bro!


Getting back to the issue, it comes down to a matter of policy. To quote the famous saying that is often attributed to Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Sure, backing away from a criminal might preserve your life a little longer, but it leaves the world just a little worse off for it. Imagine for a second, if every time a criminal wanted to commit a crime, they faced a mortal fight? There would be nearly zero crime in very short order. That is why our country fights terrorists. Violent criminals are nothing more than personal terrorists, and the correct policy for the government concerning national terrorists, is also the correct police for individuals facing personal terrorists. If I die doing that, so be it. I would rather my son grow up knowing his dad did the right thing when it really counted, than to have to live with the shame of knowing I put myself above others, and selfishly let them be victimized while I did nothing to stop it.

For your son's sake, I hope you never have to put this to the test. If you had been on that bus and died, your death would have meant nothing. There was no need for anyone to confront the assailant. The situation on that bus went as well as it possibly could have and there was no need for anyone to risk their life.

Deterrent? You really think this guy was thinking about whether he'd be punished for what he did? He flipped out! It happens. People who flip out aren't thinking about consequences. This wasn't a "criminal." It was a man who was beyond reason. Do you really think fear of punishment would have had any effect on him at all?

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

SgtMaj what would have you done different if you were on the bus as it was braking hard to get off the road as this is going on? Remember your in Canada we don't carry guns. Its against the law. Every one is heading to the door to get off and your cought in the flow of panicking people trying to get off the buss.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Yup, no doubt that there have been fatalities related to Tazer use. The fact of the matter, however, is that they are not generally fatal. That being the case, I think their use is preferable in situations where missing the intended target is a possibility.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

For your son's sake, I hope you never have to put this to the test. If you had been on that bus and died, your death would have meant nothing. There was no need for anyone to confront the assailant. The situation on that bus went as well as it possibly could have and there was no need for anyone to risk their life.

Deterrent? You really think this guy was thinking about whether he'd be punished for what he did? He flipped out! It happens. People who flip out aren't thinking about consequences. This wasn't a "criminal." It was a man who was beyond reason. Do you really think fear of punishment would have had any effect on him at all?

One thing I know, is that spending the rest of his life in a cushy prison, isn't going to deter him or anyone else. Sure this guy may have had a psychotic break... then again, the guy he stabbed may have just pissed him off... or he may have been planning to attack someone (anyone) for some time. However, this is one guy... meanwhile there are more than a billion people who have seen this story and seen how this guy did what he set out to do without being stopped or even anyone making an attempt to stop him. I wonder what effect that has on any of them who may be or may have contemplated committing a violent crime?

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Jay It's ironic you should mention Tasers. As you may be aware, this awful incident happened in Canada and in Canada there has been quite a bit of discussion going on in the media about whether the police should be using Tasers the way they do.

Slightly off-topic, but speaking of... wasn't there a case recently where police tazered a kid with a broken neck 19 times?

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

SgtMaj what would have you done different if you were on the bus as it was braking hard to get off the road as this is going on? Remember your in Canada we don't carry guns. Its against the law. Every one is heading to the door to get off and your caught in the flow of panicking people trying to get off the buss.

Assuming they had just confiscated my gun, or that I cared enough about their anti-freedom legislation enough to stop carrying, I would have simply rushed him, tacked him, and attempted to wrestle the knife from him. If successful I would have given orders to anyone else still around to give the guy that got stabbed in the chest first aid, including pressure on the wound, laying on whichever side he got stabbed in to prevent drowning, etc. while restraining the assailant. As far as people being in a mad rush to leave getting in my way... there's no law of physics that says I can't climb over the seats to get to him.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Yup, no doubt that there have been fatalities related to Tazer use. The fact of the matter, however, is that they are not generally fatal. That being the case, I think their use is preferable in situations where missing the intended target is a possibility.

Missing the intended target is always a possibility. That's why they are supposed to train constantly, to minimize that possibility as much as possible.

PS - I dont think it's the use of tazers in place of guns that is causing the public outrage over them, it's the use of them when no force at all is necessary. If cops only used tazers when they would have used a gun otherwise, then they would be great, and no one would have any problem with them.

 

[dave11]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

On a different note, THIS is why I support open carry of firearms.

I have been around firearms all my life. I did my tour in the Army. There is no doubt that not everyone should carry, and even if you are it would not always be wise or legal to become involved in what is happening.

 

[dave11]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Interesting, SGTMaj could you please post what you would have done in a bus crowed with panicked people and a maniac with a knife stabbing and cutting off heads? Just would like to know for future reference, as I would hate to have my pictured published with a caption.

None of us were there. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback, and I certainly can't say what I would have done. I can't help but agree with SGT Maj. One thing I will say, when the bad guys are killed at the scene, we don't have to pay for an expensive trial, 15 to 20 years of incarceration, and legal appeals. All of this is, of course, is paid by you and me. If he had been killed on site, it would have probably saved taxpayers maybe a million dollars.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Missing the intended target is always a possibility. That's why they are supposed to train constantly, to minimize that possibility as much as possible.

I'm not talking about police officers, etc. when I speak of the possibility of missing the intended target. What I don't want to see is a bunch of "civilians" with handguns trying to use them in this sort of situation. A bus is very similar to an airplane in that it is basically a long, narrow tube with a very high concentration of people in it. Random gunshots by people who are not trained to handle this sort of environment are very likely to result in wounding and/or death of other passengers. There are, in fact, specific ways to deal with this problem, but "if I told you, I'd have to kill you!" All jokes aside, this is not the sort of thing to discuss in an internet forum - just take my word for it when I say that are methods to take out an assailant aboard an airplane or bus.

Consider also, that if there happens to be someone who has the training to engage in some sort of combat with an assailant, getting the rest of the passengers out of the way is going to make that easier. By doing so, there are no other potential victims, no potential hostages, and no one to get in the way of the counter attack.

When I was involved in transportation security, Tazers didn't exist. Had they been invented, I can assure you that I would have wanted to know if they could become an effective part of a security plan. To me, they are just a slam dunk item, as far as being a resource to contain violence aboard an aircraft, bus or ship. In fact, had airline crew members been equipped with them, and trained in their use, I doubt 911 would have happened. Imagine the result if those aircraft had cabin attendants and flight crew with access to multiple Tazers. I believe that, instead of the result that we know all too well, there would have been a bunch of would be terrorists in jail.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

None of us were there. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback, and I certainly can't say what I would have done. I can't help but agree with SGT Maj. One thing I will say, when the bad guys are killed at the scene, we don't have to pay for an expensive trial, 15 to 20 years of incarceration, and legal appeals. All of this is, of course, is paid by you and me. If he had been killed on site, it would have probably saved taxpayers maybe a million dollars.

Not to mention the fact that this guy WILL be let out of prison. They chose to charge him only with second degree murder, despite the fact that he had enough foresight to tell his boss and wife he was going away, had the planning to bring the knife on board in the first place... yeah, I'm not buying that it wasn't planned. Maybe he wanted the notoriety. I don't know. But it's pretty sad that he'll be a free man again.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

When I was involved in transportation security, Tazers didn't exist. Had they been invented, I can assure you that I would have wanted to know if they could become an effective part of a security plan. To me, they are just a slam dunk item, as far as being a resource to contain violence aboard an aircraft, bus or ship. In fact, had airline crew members been equipped with them, and trained in their use, I doubt 911 would have happened. Imagine the result if those aircraft had cabin attendants and flight crew with access to multiple Tazers. I believe that, instead of the result that we know all too well, there would have been a bunch of would be terrorists in jail.

That may be, but if there were a bunch of civilians with guns on those flights, things also would have turned out differently. In fact, the planners of the 9-11 attacks, RELIED fully on people's unwillingness to fight back. Had the willingness of passengers to fight back been more in question, I doubt they would have even tried those tactics for attacking this country. Out of 4 flights, only one had people on it who were willing to fight back, and even then, it was only after they discovered the certainty of death by not fighting back that they did so. But even so, they saved, who knows how many lives by fighting back, even though they still lost their lives in the end.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Sure, backing away from a criminal might preserve your life a little longer, but it leaves the world just a little worse off for it. Imagine for a second, if every time a criminal wanted to commit a crime, they faced a mortal fight? There would be nearly zero crime in very short order. QUOTE]



Thats the answer. Arm every citizen to the teeth and let them be judge jury and executioner in the blink of an eye.
Yep,, that will cut down on crime and the prison population for sure. Why didnt anyone think of this before??? The "World" would be so much better off.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Thats the answer. Arm every citizen to the teeth and let them be judge jury and executioner in the blink of an eye.
Yep,, that will cut down on crime and the prison population for sure. Why didnt anyone think of this before??? The "World" would be so much better off.

Sure as hell works in West Virginia. Why don't you compare their per capita crime rate to that of one of the most anti-gun areas in the country, Washington D.C.... See how your anti-gun attitude is working out for them... ooohhh right, it's not. They have some of the highest crime rates because they make sure their honest, law abiding citizens are easy targets. HERE'S A CLUE FOR YOU: CRIMINALS WILL CARRY GUNS REGARDLESS OF IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL OR NOT.

Gun legislation only affects victims' ability to fight back, not the ability of criminals to obtain or use them against their targets.

PS - I'm really amazed this thread hasn't been locked already. Either the mods are asleep or they've mellowed out a bit.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

SGTMaj. With all due respect,, I think you live in a fantasy world where your the hero and scores of John Wayne's walk the streets keeping things in check with wild west justice,,,, You need to get a grip on reality.

Me Anti gun?? Thats laughable.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

Had the willingness of passengers to fight back been more in question, I doubt they would have even tried those tactics for attacking this country. Out of 4 flights, only one had people on it who were willing to fight back, and even then, it was only after they discovered the certainty of death by not fighting back that they did so. But even so, they saved, who knows how many lives by fighting back, even though they still lost their lives in the end.

The things you say about other people are outrageous and unjustifiable. It may make you feel better to think that you would have acted the hero in either of these situations, but you're living a fantasy. Let's look at the actual situations.

9/11: Six guys on the plane, at least one of whom had a box knife to the throat of a flight attendant at all times. They tell you they're hijacking the plane to another country and when they're done, everyone will be freed. You're going to risk the lives of those flight attendants by rushing those guys? You would now, knowing what the terrorists intended. However, had you been there, I'm not sure you would have seen fighting back as the bravest thing to do. The one flight that did fight back did so because they knew they were going to die, so they knew that risking the lives of the flight attendants was the right thing to do. Everyone else on the other flights did what they thought was the right thing. Had you been there, I'm willing to bet you would have done exactly what they did. If not, I've got no respect for you at all. No man has the right to gamble on the life of another in a hostage situation.

Greyhound bus: Moving vehicle with a center aisle that can allow one person to pass. Double seats. Let's say you're six seats ahead of the attack. Are you going to block the aisle and force others to stay within knife range as you try to fight your way against the human tide of grandmothers, children and others who simply can't fight back? Are you going to keep the guy in your window seat pinned in place while you wait for the aisle to clear? Climb over the seat backs? In your fantasy version, you have easy access to the assailant. In reality, the situation is completely different. Calling someone a yellow-bellied coward because he didn't put the lives of others at risk to try to prove a point to a violent and insane person? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Grayhound Beheading

The things you say about other people are outrageous and unjustifiable.

I wouldn't get too worked up over this, cheburashka. This is the guy who's going to build his own airplane in his back yard and run his jeep on water.