New tax scam?

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reelfishin

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Over the course of the last two years, I've replaced both vehicles, and bought several boats.
I received a letter today from my states Division of Taxation saying I owe a balance of $2340 in unpaid sales tax.
When you register a vehicle, you have to show proof of sale, (a receipt signed by both parties), and the signed title.
I did so on every vehicle. They are saying that since I paid under the current NADA value, they want to collect the sales tax on the balance of what I paid and the NADA value. They are saying the car which I paid $3,000 for is worth $14,700, my trucks which I paid $450 for each are supposedly worth $3850 and $5850, and my 1971 trihull is worth $3500, when I got it for free. They are trying to collect sales tax on the NADA value not the amount paid. They've listed every vehicle I've bought or taken ownership of in the last two years.
I've never bought a vehicle or boat unless it was super cheap or an outright hell of a deal.

Has anyone else had such a problem? I am in New Jersey. I thought sales tax was supposed to be on the amount of the purchase? I guess if you buy an item on sale, you should pay the tax on the suggested retail price too?
 

ondarvr

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Re: New tax scam?

I had the same issue on a truck (2002 F150 4X4) that I bought from a customer of mine, there was some body damage and they had an estimate for $7,000 in repairs and decided to sell it. I got it for $3,000, the state wanted taxes on $14,900 (NADA), I fought for a lower real value and got it down to $9,900 and was then able to take the estimate for repairs of $7,000 off that price, so I only paid taxes on the $3,000. I had to show what they really sold for in my area and at different web sites online.

There was very little damage on the truck, but at the dealer even a small repair can cost a great deal and it adds up fast.
 

5150abf

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Re: New tax scam?

I wish I could invent new income streams.

States are hurting right now and I'm sure they have all kinds of neat tricks to make money.

That seems pretty close to ripping people off, charging sales tax taxes on money you didn't spend 2 years after you didn't spend it, ya that doesn't seem quite right.
 

Bamby

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Re: New tax scam?

I live in West Virginia and they take pride in the same tax scam. They actually look at several books to get highest book value on which to base sales tax. Does not matter what you paid for it tax is based on book value. Also if you should ever decide to move here they will charge you a 5% sales tax based on book value. Thats on all the personal property that you own truck, car, camper, boat, etc. If the mexicans owned anything thats sure to keep them out of W.V. for sure.
Gregg
 

Andy in NY

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Re: New tax scam?

Move to Massachusetts... they charge you excise tax every year on your vehicle.

Seriously though, here in NY I have NEVER had to pay tax based on the NADA value of a vehicle. I was told by a lady at the dmv that if you pay under a certain percentage UNDER the NADA value is when they get suspicious. "Really, I paid $100 for this 2001 Chevy Camaro!"

When I bought my Bravado last month, I paid $3200 for it. NADA is $5500. I had to fill out a form, have it signed by the lady I bought it from and notarized that I actually paid that price for it. I paid tax on $3200.

When I registered my boat, they didn't even question the $200 price tag.
 

tommays

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Re: New tax scam?

I am not supprised i gave a 1995 oldsmobil to my SIL last year (i really gave it to here) and told her we need to do a bill of sale for 1 dollar or they would nail her on sales tax and i had to sign an affidavit about the dollar:rolleyes:
 

NelsonQ

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Re: New tax scam?

In many provinces in Canada, it is standard to pay taxes on the book value of a vehicle, not the purchase price. So if you get a truck worth $10K for $1k, you still would need to pay taxes on the $10K. In Ontario, that would be 8% and I'm sure we believe it all to be better paying $80 instead of $800.

It was supposedly introduced to prevent the gov't from being short changed. For example you want $6500 for your truck, I give you close to asking price in exchange for a receipt saying it was sold for $3000. Saves the seller from dropping his price, and saves the buyer on the tax end. Apparently, that limited how deep the gov't could reach into your wallet so they started the book value crap.

Two things in life are guaranteed, death and taxes.
 

winenut

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Re: New tax scam?

Can someone from Florida address this as well? I was wondering about this the other day. I was under the impression that the only tax we pay on a used vehicle/vessel is a titling/registration tax. I've never bought a used vehicle or vessel in the state of Florida, so I am curious.
 

hubbard53

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Re: New tax scam?

Move to Massachusetts... they charge you excise tax every year on your vehicle.

Seriously though, here in NY I have NEVER had to pay tax based on the NADA value of a vehicle. I was told by a lady at the dmv that if you pay under a certain percentage UNDER the NADA value is when they get suspicious. "Really, I paid $100 for this 2001 Chevy Camaro!"

When I bought my Bravado last month, I paid $3200 for it. NADA is $5500. I had to fill out a form, have it signed by the lady I bought it from and notarized that I actually paid that price for it. I paid tax on $3200.

When I registered my boat, they didn't even question the $200 price tag.

its not a tax scam, its usually a CONSUMER scam where they falsify the actual price paid on the title to avoid paying sales tax. Unless there is a reason why you paid so little for it (damage) then in their eyes, you're falsifying the price to avoid sales tax. Makes sense to me, really.
 

Andy in NY

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Re: New tax scam?

its not a tax scam, its usually a CONSUMER scam where they falsify the actual price paid on the title to avoid paying sales tax. Unless there is a reason why you paid so little for it (damage) then in their eyes, you're falsifying the price to avoid sales tax. Makes sense to me, really.

I agree that it is to stop people from saying they paid almost nothing for it to aviod paying sales tax. But, Like I said, NY has a way to deal with that. The person you bought it from can sign a form saying exactly what you paid for it and have it notorized.


The problem comes in where no money is exchanged. I have given away cars before, and have gotten free cars. My friend gave me a 1987 ford escort back in 1997. It was a real POS, but book on it was like $2000, and thats what I had to pay SALES tax on, even though it wasn't a SALE.

What do you do when someone is practicly giving away a 15 year old boat because it is wrecked or maybe needs lots of repair? If it books for $10,000 but you pick it up for $2000 because it has a blown motor and needs new floor/stringers/transon, are you just going to roll over and pay tax on 10k?
 

fishingdan

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Re: New tax scam?

I have experienced this myself. They do this in MA and IL. The first time was when I was right out of college. My grandparents gave me one of their cars. My grandfather made me pay $1 for it to "keep it legal". :) When I went to register it, they pulled out guide and chose a proper value.

As a real adult, I then had this happen in MA when I too got a great deal on a boat. They pulled the same thing. When the registration person looks at the value and doesn't think it is right, they are instructed to look up the value.
 

reelfishin

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Re: New tax scam?

The car I bought was a 5 year old Mercury Grand Marquis, it was advertised on Craigslist as "Old Merc - $5,000 O.B.O." I found it looking for outboards. It was in the wrong category, listed at a time when gas just shot over $4/gal, and had been sitting for 4 years after a death in the family. It had sat in a falling down garage, had a dead battery, 4 flat tires, and damage to both bumper covers.
The brakes were seized up, and the belts were rusted to the pulleys.
The guy had taken ill and the car was just left to sit till after he passed away. They sold the old guy's house and had to get the car out asap.
When I looked at it, the owner had a bad attitude and gave me a speech about how irresponsible it was to drive a big car like that, and that if her dad had any sense, he'd have bought a foreign car.
All in all the car just needed basic maintenance and some elbow grease to clean it up. But it was 3 hours away from home and had to be towed. I made an offer of $2000 and after a week, we ended up agreeing on $3k. When I made the offer, I really didn't care if I got it or not, and the seller's attitude didn't help much either. Fixing the car didn't take a lot of money, just my time to clean it up and some new rubber. I am a former dealership mechanic and I already had two parts cars which could donate all the parts that I got for near nothing from a friends body shop. (I already drove another car of the same year too). The car had only 9,200 miles on it, but had been driven by a 90+ year old man with poor eyesight, he apparently had trouble getting in and out of the concrete garage that it was in, all four bumper corners were torn and the building had matching paint marks. The drivers door edge was pretty battered up too from hitting the wall in the garage.

I don't know how they come to their value on the car, the price I get on it is only about $7,000 in good running condition. If I had to pay someone to do the work I did to the car, I'd have had a $5,000 bill or more. My buddy that painted the two bumper covers told me to refinish and repaint both bumper covers and to buff out the whole car would be $2,600 in itself, the tires were $165 each for top of the line Michelins, the belts and hoses were $320, I aligned the front end, which would be over $200 for a complete alignment at the dealer, and a full tune up and service would have been well over $800. The spark plugs were $14 each at Ford. The car was covered in bird and tree dirt, the exhaust was rusted out from sitting so long and the battery had frozen and leaked all over the battery tray and rotted out the lower tray and core support bracket. It looks new now, but I have over 200 hours in it and still am not done but I do not count my labor in it since I intend to keep it. If it were a car bought to resell, it would not have been worth the work.

I've also had my old car, a 60,000 mile version of the same car but fully loaded listed for sale for 4 months, it's in near mint shape and have had no takers at $3000, I even ran an ad at $1200 and got no serious buyers, so how can they tell me it's worth $16K? Both cars book the same. Larger cars simply do no sell now with gas being so high, even though these get 25 MPG or better.

They are doing the same thing on my two Ranger trucks and my Dodge van. I paid $800 for two Ford Ranger pickups, a 95 and 97, both were running but had emissions issues which I fixed. I bought them both from a local dealer that couldn't fix the problems. Repairs cost me about $10. The Dodge van is a 1997, has 40,320 miles and came to me for $300 with bad trans and damaged dash board after the radio was ripped out while down for service. It was a state vehicle bought at auction, no one bid because it needed to be towed and the wheels were locked up from sitting. I knew the guy that drove it, it had sat for years after a motor pool mechanic tried to fix the trans and failed miserably. I towed it home and rebuilt the trans and replaced the brakes and it's like a new truck now. That was 2 years ago, they are now saying that I need to pay the sales tax on that one too, they say it's worth $11,200. It's a bare bones, no air work truck which has a home done paint job to cover up the highway service paint job, it came to me with flat black paint all over covering up the highway logo and numbers. It was also painted a florescent yellow color. I painted it myself for the cost of the paint at work. It only took me about $600 to make it a good work truck but there's no way anyone would pay $11,200 for it. I'd be hard pressed to get $600 for it these days with the cost of gas. It only gets about 10 mpg, so it won't be a real hot seller, especially without air.

I intend to fight this 100%, there's no way their getting sales tax over an above the actual sale. I didn't falsify any reciepts, only one was a private sale, the two Rangers were a dealer sale with the dealer charging the tax, and the van was a goverment auction, where I was charged tax on the documented sale.
Any vehicle sale here requires a signed bill of sale and a signed title, the bill of sale is a state form in which both parties swear to the purchase price and finality of the sale. Its more so to establish liability in the event of a problem or law suit. (Vehicles sold under $2500 are automatically considered AS IS).

I filed that form when I transfered the title, that was with the DMV, not Div of Taxation.
Sales tax law states that "Sales tax is to be collected on all non essential items for the full purchase price of said item" The full purchase price is the amount paid or the amount of money that has changed hands, no more, no less.

It's bad enough they tax the same item twice, I am sure tax was paid on this car when it was bought new, and they collect tax on it every time it's sold again. The part that gets me is that they are pushing this on every vehicle that I've bought over the past two years. Every one was bought cheap, I only buy my vehicles if they are super cheap, there's no way I'd pay full price for any vehicle.
It goes right back to a case where they would also have to charge sales tax on the full price of a sale item rather than the sale price in every store. It would be the same thing.
 

modernrocketry

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Re: New tax scam?

Not certain about other states, but in Calif I think we get screwed on boat taxes.

I paid sales tax on my boat when I bought it. (I could have bought a small Honda for what I paid in sales tax!)

and I still get the privilege of paying property tax on my boat every year (1% of its estimated value)

I'm sorry but that is double taxation -- Pick one or the other, but not both!

At a minimum -- Arnold should kiss me first!
 

MrBigStuff

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Re: New tax scam?

Yep, there's a lot of fraud out there in used merchadise land. Where I grew up it was common practice to fill out TWO bills of sale. One for the purchaser and one for the govmint for tax purposes. So they started the practice of flagging sales that were way out of line with retail values. However, their first action was to contact the seller to verify the sales price (in case the buyer was the only one perpetrating the fraud). Usually, if the seller verified the price, it was left at that. Sometimes, they kept probing and wanted verifiable proof that the vehicle was only worth the sales price.
 

Hitech

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Re: New tax scam?

I'm sure that they think that because you have bought so many vehicles so cheap that you must be lieing about the amount paid. If you document everything (pictures of the problems would help if you have any) and sent that documentation to them they may back off.

Good luck.
 

erikgreen

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Re: New tax scam?

I agree... they are probably expecting that if it was a legitimate sale you'll be able to back up your price with documentation.

They aren't able to separate the frauds from the legit sales based on what they have, so they assume that by sending you a big bill that you'll be motivated to prove your claim. That's a lousy thing to do, but that's the way government increasingly works.

I am not a lawyer, but I doubt that any state trying to charge income tax based on an arbitrary or expected value rather than the actual sale price would be permitted to do so after a court challenge... this seems like something that should be outlawed at the national level. But it'll be a while before a test case comes along that makes it to the federal courts on appeal.

But again, the state is betting that either you're guilty of fraud and as such will roll over and pay, or that you're too cheap to take it to court, and will roll over and pay, or that you're legit enough to have documentation on the sale and will be motivated to provide them copies at your expense.

The bottom line is that you have to prove that the actual sale price was what you listed. They can't charge you tax based on NADA or other book value if you prove the real price.

In short, they're screwing you, but not in the way you think :)

If you're getting tired of the state and federal governments pulling crap like this, you're not the only one.

Erik
 

gcboat

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Re: New tax scam?

O.K. - I'm in Florida and we pay taxes on the purchase price - not some trumped up NADA garbage. As funny as it may seem they go by trust. However if you show up to title a 2008 BMW convertible that shows you paid $500.00 for it , well there's a pretty good chance your gonna' get audited.
BUT - if you have a receipt that shows a $500.00 deal - well, that's what you pay the taxes on.
No reelfishin - I think that system is totally wrong. But what big brother sez', is what you must do.
 

timdan94

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Re: New tax scam?

The thing I don't agree with is that if you buy something used the sales tax was already paid when it was bought new why should you have to pay the tax again?
 

erikgreen

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Re: New tax scam?

The thing I don't agree with is that if you buy something used the sales tax was already paid when it was bought new why should you have to pay the tax again?

From the govts. point of view, the tax isn't a tax on newly produced goods, it's a tax on any sales transaction within their scope of control.

So you are taxed on earning the money and taxed when you spend it.

I've been thinking of moving to a state without income tax myself.
 

roscoe

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Re: New tax scam?

The thing I don't agree with is that if you buy something used the sales tax was already paid when it was bought new why should you have to pay the tax again?

Because they want your money.

there is a long ongoing process to eliminate all hard currency, and force everyone to use electronic means for all transactions. New, used, ebay, garage sales, flea markets, etc.

Then they will have an electronic record of all your income and purchases, so they can tax you. The federal gov't is doing this in the name of security, and the states are going along for the free money.
 
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