75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

crb478

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I have a 1975 Johnson 115 that is not running well or at all in the water, but will on muffs. My compression #'s are 1- 107 2- 115 3- 112 4- 115. I have freshly cleaned carbs. I put in a new power pack and coils. Before I changed the coils the boat ran up to about 4700 rpm on a 18 foot center console with about 2000 lbs total weight. It wasn't running exactly right before and the coils were cracked so I changed them. I was still trying to get the motor to run its best before I started switching out props.

I verified the engine timing using the Joe Reeves method, but still had an intermittnet miss even though I had spark on all four cylinders that jumped a 7/16 inch gap. I used an inductive timing light and found that the coil on cylinder 2 would skip a beat every second or so. I switched that coil out for one of the old ones that was not cracked and it sounded better and was firing on all four cylinders and the miss was now gone. I thought that I had it fixed at this point.

I took the boat to the boat ramp and put it in the water. I had to tilt the engine up some to get it to crank, but the water intake was still covered. When I took it out it would only turn about 1800 rpm's. I ran it out into the cove for about 1/4 mile hoping it would pick up, and then pulled into my boat slip. The engine cut off before getting into the slip as I backed off the throttle. The fuel bulb stayed fairly hard and pumping the bulb made no difference while the engine was running. Neither did pushing in the choke.

I took the cowl off and was able to recrank the engine by tilting it again. The engine sounded better and would rev well when tilted down out of gear so I backed out and headed back toward the boat ramp. The engine then began to miss and sputter then died and would not start back up. It would fire for a few revolutions then die again. Some one offered me a tow in so I took it back to the ramp. Before the tow I noticed that both cylinder heads were fairly cool, but that the flywheel was warm/hot but not to the point that you could not leave your hand on it.

I towed the boat home, about a mile, immediately put the muffs on it and it cranked and was getting spark on all four cylinders. What am I missing?

I tested the stator about a month ago and it was within specs. I haven't pulled the flywheel, but the stator looks good and is not covering in goo. The timer base seems to be working right. Could this be an issue with the power pack even though it is new? Right now I am at a loss and would like any suggestions since I do not want to just throw new parts at this until it goes away. Hopefully some of you have seen simular problems to this in the past. Thanks in advance Carl
 

HighTrim

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

My best guess is that your timer base is weak, but is only a guess. It is obvious that the backpressure on the exhaust while under load (on the water) is causing a no spark scenario. Try testing it as follows, cant hurt to check.

Check the resistance from the #1 to the #3 sensor wire, and from the #2 to the #4 sensor wire. You should get around 10-20 ohms on each.

Now check the DVA output from the timer base. You should get a reading of at least 0.5V or more from the #1 sensor wire to the #3 sensor wire, and from the #2 sensor wire to the #4 sensor wire (while connected to the pack).Anything less will not adequately fire the pack. If the output is low, you may try to reset the air gap between the timer base sensor and the triggering magnet using a Sensor Gap Gauge (553-9702), which you likely do not have, so use the following procedure:

a) Loosen the two mounting screws on the sensors and the nuts located in the epoxy on the outside of the heat shield of the timer base.
b) Slide the sensors in toward the crankshaft until the sensor touches the stop boss located at the base of the sensor mounting area. Tighten the mounting screws.
c) Coat the face of the sensors with machinists bluing or equivalent.
d) Install the flywheel without the key and rotate the flywheel at least one full turn.
e) Remove the flywheel and check to see if the trigging magnet struck the face of the sensors. If it did, back the sensor out approximately 0.005? and repeat steps c, d and e.
f) If the ignition fired, finger tight the nuts on the outside of the heat shield and coat them with RTV.
g) If still no fire, replace the sensor.
 

crb478

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Thanks, I guess that it is time to invest in a DVA attachment for my multi meter. My brother lives to far away to try to keep borrowing his stuff. I hate to keep running into a wall with this engine. Maybe I can get lucky this time and an adjustment will fit it. Thanks Again!
 

iwombat

Captain
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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Before you go mucking about with the electricals. Are you sure all cylinders are actually igniting? i.e. Are they all getting fuel and spark? Could be you've got a stuck or misadjusted float and only two of four are firing. Fire it up on the muffs and start pulling off one plug wire at a time (replace it after you check). Each time you pull a plug wire off you should notice a change in RPMs - if not, you've got a problem.
 

bigpoppakdog

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437
Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

just to throw my two cents in...have your adjusted idle screws?
 

HighTrim

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Before you go mucking about with the electricals. Are you sure all cylinders are actually igniting? i.e. Are they all getting fuel and spark? Could be you've got a stuck or misadjusted float and only two of four are firing. Fire it up on the muffs and start pulling off one plug wire at a time (replace it after you check). Each time you pull a plug wire off you should notice a change in RPMs - if not, you've got a problem.


Thought of that too, couldnt figure how running it under load would affect a stuck float though, as opposed to on muffs. Strange scenario indeed.
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

I am fairly sure that it is getting fuel to all four or at least that it was. I am starting over with this though and rechecking everything so I will start pulling the plugs with it running. It currently idles at about 1300 on muffs and was at about 800 in the water. I will take the cover off and spray fuel straight into the carb failing that. After that I guess I will be pulling the flywheel and looking around. It can't hurt to clean it up a little bit anyway, or at least I hope it can not. I have been wrong about that before. Thanks for all the suggestions.
 

ezeke

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

You might want to check the coil wires again to be sure that you have the correct ones running to the ignition coils, It is fairly simple to get them switched.

Use my copied diagrams to check:
 

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crb478

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

They are in the same position as shown on your diagram, but thanks for the suggestion. I really need to do all of the basics to make sure that I haven't missed anything.
 

ezeke

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Try it with the rectifier disconnected. Then test the stator.

I'm not sure that I understand your comments about running the motor tilted, which it is not designed to do.
 

iwombat

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Usually "runs great on the muffs" isn't actually true. More like it fools me into thinking it runs great on the muffs. The problem is still there, you just don't notice it w/o a load. It'll sound great running on 2-cylinders on the muffs.
 

Okee Jimmy

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Check to see if it is breathing its own exhaust, a blown base, or exhaust gasket can severly hamper performance.
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Usually "runs great on the muffs" isn't actually true. More like it fools me into thinking it runs great on the muffs. The problem is still there, you just don't notice it w/o a load. It'll sound great running on 2-cylinders on the muffs.

Didn't mean to iply that it ran great on muffs, I am still trying to get this one to run great. I am fairly certain that it was firing on all 4 earlier, but then again it would hit 4700 rpm at WOT then and I still felt that I was not getting full power out of it. The spark has always jumped a 7/16 in gap, but I would like to see a stronger spark. That is also one of the reasons I bought new coils. I think that it is time to so all the basics again as this is likely a new issue to go along with what ever else that I need to get fixed. Thanks for all of the suggestions, hopefully I will get off work in time to try some of them out today.
 

iwombat

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Actually, that was more of a response to HighTrim than anything else. I think it's very worthwhile to check out proper ignition to all the cylinders while not under load. My money is still on a carb problem, but I can't base that on any real data yet.
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

I am actually hoping for a carb problem! Much cheaper for me if that is the case. I do not mind rebuilding the carbs again at all.
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Actually, that was more of a response to HighTrim than anything else. I think it's very worthwhile to check out proper ignition to all the cylinders while not under load. My money is still on a carb problem, but I can't base that on any real data yet.

Iwombat I owe you a beer!

It was a stuck needle in the bottom carb. While I am in there I am going to replace all of the fuel lines. I even had the motor running on one cylinder for a second. Pulled the carb and it was a little dirty, but I have just switched tanks back to the main tank. There is a new filter that should be catching most of it but the lines might have had some trash in them. As luck would have it I am cleaning a co workers carb right now so mine will have to wait for a day. Thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions. Hopefully this will fix it for a while.
 

iwombat

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

AHA! I knew it!

Did you re-kit when you rebuilt? If so did you use the little valve clips that help with the whole stuck float valve issue?
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

I did put in a new kit and use the clips. I was really surprised at the amount of crud that had gotten into the float bowl. I suspect that it came out of some of the fuel lines that I was using to try to get the fuel in the built in tank through the new filter. The carbs were spotless when I put it back together.

At this point I am planning on rebuilding both carbs again with new kits and keeping the old kits for spare parts. I will also replace the fuel line from the filter to the engine and to the carbs.

I suspect that I have had a partial blockage on the bottom carb and that is why the engine was only turning 4700 rpm with a 13 1/4 x 17 prop. It would also help explain the up and down idle and hard starting in the water. I guess it finally got enough crud in place to make the neetle stick.

Thanks again for your help I may have gotten there eventually with out it, but you sure helped me get there faster.
 

iwombat

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Just get it running so you can take me out while I'm in NC this weekend :)
 

crb478

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Re: 75 Johnson 115 runs on muffs not in water

Waiting for the kits
 
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