Electric Question on utility meter

[SS MAYFLOAT]

My brother in law has a house with an apartment on the 2nd floor. The house has two utility meters, 1 for the downstairs and 1 for the upstairs apartment.

He asked me what would happen if he tied in L1 of the first floor meter to the L1 of the second floor and the same for L2. With them coming from the same line and phase, I don't think nothing will happen except for the performance of the utility meters.
Will the meters read slower, faster, or no difference? I'm thinking the loads will be divided between the two meters averaging out the load. ......He is hoping that it will cut his electric rate in half......I don't think so. Plus I told him that this could be illegal as well................SS

 

[rwise]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

It would be illegal here, I think it would *share* both user's, so if the upstairs used more his bill would go up. Which meter does he have, the old style or the new one with the red face? The old style one can place a very strong magnet behind it and almost stall it out (not legal either), if placed in the wrong place it speeds up the meter. I am not saying one should do this, but it does work!

 

[Pierutrus]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Don't even mess with it.
IF you/he get's caught, rest assured there will be jail time involved.
If it's like what it is around here......It's like robbing a bank!
They don't think its funny at all.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Oh, he is not going to do it. We were discussing how the meters would react. I know on our 3 phase service the meter is read through a coil. Similar to an amploc for a VOM. So I'm basing my analogy below.

So if apt 1 has a current draw of 10 amps while apt 2 has a draw of 20 amps, the main supply feeding the two meters would be 30. I would think that it would slow down apt 2's meter while speeding up apt 1's meter by 5 amps. Good for one, bad for the other.

The meters have a tamper ring, big violation if it is broken. Around here the homeowner can remove the meter to disconnect the service for repairs. But don't remove the tag to the meter itself.

 

[triumphrick]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Florida is full of grow houses, where people steal power and fill the whole house with pot plants and show up once a month to cultivate, etc. Consequently the power companies have gotten some bills passed that put some serious time on those caught messing with their power and the meters. With all that said, good luck....

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Again, there will be no theft. My scenario is hypothetical. I think I answered my own question anyway. The electric before the meter and after the meter would be the same, but it would cause the meters to run in parallel at the same speed metering the same amount of electric used.

Those that do tap into the line before the meter is just asking for trouble. It is not hard to find a service that is stealing electric. All the power company has to do is take a amp reading at the pole and compare to the amp draw on the load side of the meter. If that reading is different,,,,,,BUSTED.....I was just confronted with a question that I was trying to find a answer for.

Here is a similar hypothetical situation in a different application...

Joe needed to hook up a 110 volt motor that pulls 26 amps. He is miles away from any stores. His wire is 14awg but needs 10awg to correctly meet code and the load. But it is an emergency that this motor gets running. So Joe doubles up the 14awg running 2 pieces on the hot and 2 pieces on the neutral. Now what is the amp draw on each of the hots? Is it the 26 amps for each one or is it 13 on each? I'm thinking it will be half the load shared with the other hot wire. BTW, what Joe does here will work, but not to code either which would be technically illegal as well.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Joe needed to hook up a 110 volt motor that pulls 26 amps. He is miles away from any stores. His wire is 14awg but needs 10awg to correctly meet code and the load. But it is an emergency that this motor gets running. So Joe doubles up the 14awg running 2 pieces on the hot and 2 pieces on the neutral. Now what is the amp draw on each of the hots? Is it the 26 amps for each one or is it 13 on each? I'm thinking it will be half the load shared with the other hot wire. BTW, what Joe does here will work, but not to code either which would be technically illegal as well.
A),..Gasoline is for washing parts
B),..Alcohol is for drinking
C),..Nitro Methane is for racing!

Ayuh,...

I pick B),..

 

[JustJason]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I don't believe it works that way... that you can double up the wires.
electricity always follows the path of least resistance.
if you have 2 wires, 1 will be more resitive/conductive than the other.
electricity will follow the the lesser of the 2, untill the wire starts cooking because of the current overload, then it will switch to the other wire.... untill both wires are burn't out.

i pick B also...

 

[ThumbPkr]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

If the resistance of the 2 wires is equal and their length is equal and the ambient temperature is the same for both wires then the voltage drop will be equal for both wires therefore the current will be the same in each one.
Basically each wire is a series circuit in parallel with the other.
The sum of all the voltage drops in a series circuit must equal the supply voltage.If the wires differ in any way then the corresponding reaction will apply,such as a longer wire will increase the resistance in the series circuit and the voltage drop will be greater in that wire.Ron G

 

[triumphrick]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I don't care...I pick B also...

 

[ThumbPkr]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

"B" is not an option for me...Going on 21 years here.Ron G

 

[MrBossman]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I dont think it would work because its AC current . That means with 2 wires the load will not be consistant due to the fact that it is AC . One wire will be out of "sink" with the other one, I would just install the correct breaker and wire and be done with it.There is no room for guess work when it comes to electricity. You have to get it right the first time or risk a fire or worse.

 

[MrBigStuff]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

>He is hoping that it will cut his electric rate in half

That doesn't sound like a hypothetical situation to me.


ThumbPkr is right on the second situation.

 

[ThumbPkr]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

If you google "Kirchoffs Law" it is the accepted set of rules and formulas as it applies to the physics of electricity distribution in series and parallel circuits.
You can explain any set of conditions at any point and predict what the conditions will be at any other point.
That is what troubleshooting is all about,knowing what should be and analyzing when it isn't with good service info and reliable test equipment.Ron G

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

In parallel circuits, voltage stays the same. In series circuits, amperage stays the same. That is Kirchoffs law, basically. How do I know? I just got back my "basic electricity" final today for my mechanics license and I made a 95, so that was right! LOL

You are charged by the amperage you use, I don't care if they call it kilowatts. Why? Because Ohms law says they're all interrelated. One amp is what it takes to push one volt through one ohm of resistance. It's a 1 to 1 to 1 relationship.

This is backed up by what an electrical worker told me one day. He said if we could legally deliver your electricity into your home at, say, 1000 volts, your electric bill would be roughly 1/10th what it is now. Why? Because at 1000 volts an appliance uses about 1/10th the amps it does at 110v. Or if it uses 220, it would cost about 1/5th to run. Remember, you are charged by amps, not volts. But since touching 1000 volts would blow your arm off, they have to limit it by law.

The meter the meter guy reads is more accurately called an ampmeter.

Interesting stuff.

 

[ThumbPkr]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

Congratulations on the score!!
The voltage and the current are in phase which is how the amperage is calculated.
As you get into AC theory you will see that changing the phase/voltage relationship can alter the power consumed at any given point.
My theory is mostly forgotten as a result of not using it often and probably a function of age as well but I still try to keep the brain active by repairing my test equipment and whatever else crosses my workbench.Ron G

 

[rwise]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I don't believe it works that way... that you can double up the wires.
electricity always follows the path of least resistance.
if you have 2 wires, 1 will be more resitive/conductive than the other.
electricity will follow the the lesser of the 2, untill the wire starts cooking because of the current overload, then it will switch to the other wire.... untill both wires are burn't out.

And you would be wrong!

 

[rwise]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I dont think it would work because its AC current . That means with 2 wires the load will not be consistant due to the fact that it is AC . One wire will be out of "sink" with the other one, I would just install the correct breaker and wire and be done with it.There is no room for guess work when it comes to electricity. You have to get it right the first time or risk a fire or worse.

And you would be wrong also!

 

[levittownnick]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

About the parallel wiring: Where the wires are in parallel, the current will divide by the relative impedance of the parallel wires. That means that that the wire with the lowest impedance will carry the most current (not all the current), therefore if there are 2 wires in parallel and one wire has 10% less impedance, it will carry 10% more current than the other wire. (For the average person the word impedance can be replaced with the word resistance.) The statement that "electricity takes the path of least resistance" is very misleading, while it does, it also takes the path of most resistance, It takes all paths in proportion to the impedance (resistance) with the lower impedance carrying the most current. (Inversely proportional to impedance.) If this were not true, it would be impossible to power circuits in parallel such as many buildings are powered from a single power source or in your car or home several lights are on the same circuit.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Electric Question on utility meter

I did a bit of an experiment today. I had a a toaster that I repaired today. 208 vac. Both legs measured 8 amps. I put together and makeshift extension cord using 10 ga THHN. 2 wires on one leg and 2 on the other. Using 2 amp meters I took the measurement before the test which was 8 amps.

Then when I added the extension cord, each one of the wires on the one leg measured 4 amps. That gives the total of 8 per leg, same as using 1 wire.

I think I finally have my BIL convinced that combining the two services will achieve no savings or added expense. It would cause the meters to balance out and have the same amount of KWH used.

Someone mentioned about the higher voltage meaning less amp rates,,,,,could be why the Europeans do not use anything less than 240vac @50hz. Its odd that nobody has even promoted the idea of changing over to 240 only in the states. That in itself would take a lot off the grid.