Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

oops!

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

i still donnt really under stand......ok they had a fueling prob....and they tried to clean the bilge.......

then theres the blower.....the forward motion and clearing out fumes.....and still you need a spark?

it just goes to show you that it can happen at any time
 

lkbum

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Hard to tell from the photo, but this looked like an older boat. So the question I have is, is ethanol based fule involved? Did he have deteriorating fuel lines or possibly a fiberglass fuel tank??? I've seen this first hand from my "older" land based vehicles (fuel line turn to goo and weeped) and there was a boat explosion this summer on lake lanier where there is speculation that the fiberglass tanks had begun to weep.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

No mystery here - fuel vapors are what got them. They obviously did not get the bilges completely purged and the vapors were ignited by something. Given that they traveled some distance, it may have been the exhaust manifolds.

Vapors are not your friend. Thats why a partially filled fuel tank is actually more dangerous that one that is full, but not running over. Its also useful to know that anything that burns will not do so until the material is heated sufficiently to produce vapor - it is the vapor that burns, not the solid material.
 

scoutabout

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I agree -- it's definitely an older boat -- looks to be wood which probably means the tanks were metal and perhaps there were no bilge blowers. Tanks could have been leaking from corrosion or had deteriorated fill lines, etc. Not sure how overfilling would put gas anywhere but in the water, normally.

Whatever the reason, though, it's sobering to see the results. They are all very lucky to be alive. Kudos to that other boater for getting close enough to pull them out.
 

Hitech

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Vapors are not your friend. Thats why a partially filled fuel tank is actually more dangerous that one that is full...

A full tank is the most dangerous as it has the most energy/fuel. The partially filled tank never gets to the correct fuel/air ratio to explode unless enough holes are present in the tank. It takes enough venting of the tank that is is no longer sealed enough to explode, the fumes just burn.

Mythbusters tried to blow up a gas tank and couldn't do it even when they tried.

The less fuel the safer (from a fire). That's why jets dump fuel before attempting an emergency landing.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I don't get my information from mythbusters, I get it from having once been an airport fire fighter (ARFF).

Also, dumping fuel prior to an emergency landing has nothing to do with reducing a source of flammable material. It is done to reduce landing weight. Large aircraft have an allowable maximum gross takeoff weight that is significantly higher than the allowable landing weight. Fuel is dumped when the aircraft has an emergency, but has not burned off enough fuel to land at a proper weight.
 

jonesg

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

true enuf, unless the runway is 20 miles long, then landing speed can be a bit higher...then the tires would probably blow, can't win.
 

Willyclay

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

The fact that always stuck with me from the USCG Auxiliary Safe Boating Course is "a coffee cup full of gasoline, eight ounces, has the explosive potential of ten sticks of dynamite". Aso, after witnessing an idiot trying to start a bon fire with gasoline, it gave me a first hand view of how the vapor behaves. Be safe!
 

Hitech

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I don't get my information from mythbusters, I get it from having once been an airport fire fighter (ARFF).

Okay, what are the air/fuel ratios required for gasoline vapors to explode? In a 3 foot square tank what size holes are necessary to get that ratio?

While Mythbusters are not the most scientific, they actually did try and cause a gas tank to explode. They measured the air/fuel ratio and kept making holes until it was correct, and then ignited it.

Less fuel will certainly make a plane lighter, but it will also provide MUCH less fuel to burn. It is safer.
 

mthieme

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

The fact that always stuck with me from the USCG Auxiliary Safe Boating Course is "a coffee cup full of gasoline, eight ounces, has the explosive potential of ten sticks of dynamite"

I've got a bridge you might be interested in buying.:D
 

QC

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

A full tank is the most dangerous as it has the most energy/fuel.
That's the opposite of my understanding, although the actual energy content is indeed higher . . .

The partially filled tank never gets to the correct fuel/air ratio to explode
So how does a full tank? This is where my understanding is messing me up. If the air/fuel ratio is around 15:1 it will go boom if there is an ignition source right? Actually the flammability of gasoline is 1.4 to 7.6 percent. (stoich is 14.7:1 or 6.8% fuel to air by mass) This means that if you have a percentage by mass of gasoline to air within that range, and IF there is an ignition source, it will burn. If it is contained it will blow. At least I think that is what the properties mean although I have not set my garage on fire trying to prove it . . . :eek:

The point is that a full tank is too rich to ignite. HOWEVER a full tank would feed a fire if it was leaking, so that is why they dump fuel on a plane. If they don't have as much fuel they cannot have as much fire as they would if they had more fuel . . . less total energy means less total fire, although a very empty tank can go boom, just look up TWA 800. Another :eek:
 

Hitech

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

So how does a full tank?

It doesn?t either. There is just more fuel to burn if it leaks and ignites.

If the air/fuel ratio is around 15:1 it will go boom if there is an ignition source right? Actually the flammability of gasoline is 1.4 to 7.6 percent. (stoich is 14.7:1 or 6.8% fuel to air by mass) This means that if you have a percentage by mass of gasoline to air within that range, and IF there is an ignition source, it will burn. If it is contained it will blow.

I?ll just trust your numbers (they sound right). The reason the tank won?t blow is that with just about any liquid gasoline in the tank the ratio is too high to ignite. Mythbusters had to have such a large venting area to get the correct ration that the fumes were not contained. They just burned.

Different fuels are different. However, most hydrocarbon fuels have fairly narrow ignition ratios.

Hydrogen is much more volatile. Look up its ration sometime. ;)
 

QC

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I?ll just trust your numbers (they sound right).
Yeah, they are right. You'll find some slight variations due to actual fuel compositions that are used. I tried to post a good pdf, but it was too big. Here's the link: fuel properties

The reason the tank won?t blow is that with just about any liquid gasoline in the tank the ratio is too high to ignite.
Yeah, this makes sense, and we are on the same page.

Hydrogen is much more volatile
Yup!!

the correct ration . . . Look up its ration

This cracks me up, and has confused me for years. I CANNOT type ratio without it coming out ration, and I have seen it with other posters as well. But . . . the confusing thing is that I never intentionally type the word ration, why would I? However, since I am in the fuel and engine development business I type ratio a lot . . . so why, oh why, does this happen? And not just to me . . . :confused:
 

Hitech

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

. . . so why, oh why, does this happen? And not just to me . . . :confused:

I'm thinking that MS Word "fixed" it for me. ;)
 

QC

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I type directly here and it is definitely my fingers. Also you have ratio correctly a few times too . . . :confused:
 

Hitech

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

:confused:

You got me... Never noticed it before.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Guys, you are over thinking this in regard to airplanes. Fuel dumping on large aircraft is done to reduce the gross weight of the aircraft to an acceptable landing weight. This is done because you can cause major structural damage if you land overweight, and there is even a specific inspection that must be done in the event that this has been a necessity. If you are at or below the maximum landing weight, and have an emergency, you land immediately, regardless of what your remaining fuel load is. In fact, if the emergency warrants doing so, you land overweight and deal with the consequences later.

As for explosivity of fuel vapors in tanks, some of you may remember TWA Flight 800, which exploded in flight due to arcing of an electrical connection inside of a nearly empty center wing fuel tank. For those poor folks, there just happened to be a spark inside of a fuel tank that had a lot of vapors in it, and the fuel/air mixture just happened to be within the parameters for ignition. Because the tank was nearly empty, and there was so much vapor in the tank, the resulting explosion caused a massive overpressure as a direct result of not being able to escape the enclosed space rapidly.

In terms of achieving the correct fuel/air ratio for ignition to occur, the number of holes in a tank (especially one at sea level), really doesn't make any difference. If the tank is partially empty, the atmospheric pressure inside of it will equalize with the outside of the tank, whether there are few holes or many. What determines the ratio of fuel to air, per cubic centimeter (or any other metric that you may prefer) is temperature and air density. The minute the tank is less than completely full, which is essentially all of the time, there is opportunity for the optimum vapor ratio to occur. What is key, however, is that the smaller the amount of liquid fuel present in a tank, the more vapor there will be. It all boils down to having a little or alot of vapor to burn rapidly and expand.

Where the number and size of the holes in any containing vessel does come into play, is after the rapid combustion takes place. An open tank (no top), which allows for rapid dissapation of pressure, will obviously cause less of an explosion than one that has nothing more than a vent tube in it.

In the case of this boat, what seems to have happened is that the enclosed hull of the boat became the confining space, after excess fuel ran down into it. Whatever vapors were present, filled the engine compartment and a nearly optimal fuel/air ratio occurred. My guess is that something hot on the engine created a small area where the temperature/density relationship created exactly the right condition for ignition, and a rapidly expanding ignition of all the vapor around the "epicenter" ocurred in a wave. Bearing in mind that this would happen in a split second, the result was an explosion of fuel vapor trying to escape the hull of the boat.

The bottom line is really that getting all of the fuel out of the bilge is important, because it is from the fuel that the vapors come. Once the fuel is completely eliminated, all of the vapors must be purged to avoid a potential explosion. Similarly, when a boat has internal fuel tanks, it is extremely important that all fill hoses and vent hoses are devoid of any leaks, so that no raw fuel and/or vapors can end up in the bilges.


PS: I kept typing "ration" too! :D
 

reelfishin

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Re: Boat blew up in jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

I don't get my information from mythbusters, I get it from having once been an airport fire fighter (ARFF).

Also, dumping fuel prior to an emergency landing has nothing to do with reducing a source of flammable material. It is done to reduce landing weight. Large aircraft have an allowable maximum gross takeoff weight that is significantly higher than the allowable landing weight. Fuel is dumped when the aircraft has an emergency, but has not burned off enough fuel to land at a proper weight.

I used to work at a place that repaired and modified aluminum fuel tanks quite regularly. (We would purge the tanks with water and an inert gas before any cutting or welding was done).
I can't say much for the Mythbuster's methods for trying to blow up a tank, but I do know that if you take a 20 or so gallon automotive tank, with the only major opening being the filler tube, toss in about a cup of gas and agitate, and then introduce spark, you get either a rapid jet blast and a projectile or an explosion, (On occasion the sender will just blow out of the tank as it fireballs and vents flames).

The owner used to demonstrate what can happen if you didn't follow procedure, which often just led to the guys blowing up things out back on lunch break. A 55 gallon barrel with a 4 to 6" hole plus about a gallon or so of gas, rolled out into a field and ignited with a model rocket igniter would produce a blast or burn off that sounded much like a jet engine. Often the barrel would take off or spin out of control.

Either way, the boat that blew up most likely just had fumes in the bilge that for what ever reason weren't purged or they had a continuous leak feeding the problem. We here don't know the history of that boat, so we may never know without a first hand inspection, and at that I'd venture to guess it probably wouldn't be too obvious after it burned.

Either the tanks or lines were leaking, or the hull itself or something below deck absorbed spilled gas and was still producing fumes even after a long ride. I had a cuddy cabin boat which I cut up for scrap in which the owner had stored several spare 6 gallon tanks in the cabin and under the rear deck, they sat out in the hot sun, and vented around the fuel fitting grommet when the swelled from pressure in the heat. The result was that more than half of the tanks lost significant amounts of fuel, without the owners knowledge. When I got the boat, the wood transom, stringers, flotation foam and the entire bilge were gas soaked. I strpped the boat due to its general poor conditon and kept the motor, the boat sat for a few months out back open and uncovered. When I took it to the dump, it still smelled of gas, even several feet away. If that boat that blew up was wood, there's a good chance that the hull itself absorbed enough gas to continue to produce fumes underway, then they possibly got ignited by either the hot exhaust or a stray ignition spark?
 

109jb

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Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

Re: Boat blew up in Jacksonville because the gas was overfilled?

...Less fuel will certainly make a plane lighter, but it will also provide MUCH less fuel to burn. It is safer.

It is not necessarily safer. TWA flight 800 exploded because of the amount of air in the center fuel tank which allowed a combustible air/fuel mixture. If the tank would have been full, the airplane wouldn't have blown up. The air in the tank is why the NTSB recommended inert gas systems for transport category fuel tanks. As the fuel burns off, the space gets filled with an gas that won't support combustion. Hence no oxygen to provide a combustible fuel mixture. I doubt however that anyone will be putting a OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System) on their pleasure boat.

The quantities of fuel that transport airplanes carry is so large that you are only talking about the difference between a gigantic fire and an enormous fire. As an example, a 747-400 has a fuel capacity of about 57,000 gallons. Yes 57-thousand. If it landed with only 20 percent of that you are still talking about 12,000 gallons of fuel that has more stored energy per gallon than gasoline.

I feel compelled to point out that there must have been a combustible fuel/air mixture in the bilge, and a source of combustion, presumably from the engine. That's another reason I have outboard powered boats.
 
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