Maybe some US involvement now

[Limited-Time]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Kidnappers, Extortionist, Thugs, Terrorist, Pirates, Hired Guns, they're f'n criminals for Gods sake. Just smite the sons of beaches. Small arms, large bore, heavy weapons, what ever it takes. Like QC stated: "When bad guys are allowed to win, we all lose."

 

[rolmops]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I hate to have to ask this,but why should the US Navy have to go out and protect vessels that fly the Liberian or Panamese flag?
It is time for the Panamese and Liberian Navies to protect the ships that sail under their flag.
All the shipping companies that try to evade taxes and safety regulations by sailing under foreign flags are paying for their own risk taking.
If ships flying the US flag are attacked,by all means ,let the navy do its job.Otherwise let them be protected by questionable groups like black water

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I hate to have to ask this,but why should the US Navy have to go out and protect vessels that fly the Liberian or Panamese flag?
It is time for the Panamese and Liberian Navies to protect the ships that sail under their flag.
All the shipping companies that try to evade taxes and safety regulations by sailing under foreign flags are paying for their own risk taking.
If ships flying the US flag are attacked,by all means ,let the navy do its job.Otherwise let them be protected by questionable groups like black water

Mops, a sizeable percentage of ship's officers and engineers on foreign flag ships with US affiliation are US citizens. Using your proposal as a model, should local police refuse to protect and serve anyone driving a Toyota or Mercedes? Should the coast guard refuse to aid any private vessels registered in Delaware because the owners may be avoiding state tax? Should the US turn it's back when pirates are attacking foreign flag cruise ships with women and children on board? I think it in everyones' best interest to eliminate the threat regardless of the victims' affiliation. Tomorrow, it may be one of us.

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Mops, a sizeable percentage of ship's officers and engineers on foreign flag ships with US affiliation are US citizens. Using your proposal as a model, should local police refuse to protect and serve anyone driving a Toyota or Mercedes?

If they're being driven in a different country, yes.

Should the coast guard refuse to aid any private vessels registered in Delaware because the owners may be avoiding state tax?

Inside US territorial waters is where the coast guard is supposed to operate in the first place. They're supposed to guard our coast, not some foreign coast.

Should the US turn it's back when pirates are attacking foreign flag cruise ships with women and children on board?

We can't be everybody's hero!

I think it in everyones' best interest to eliminate the threat regardless of the victims' affiliation. Tomorrow, it may be one of us.

When it is happening here, let's get right on it!

In the mean time, maybe Russia could pull one of their warships off the coast of venezuela and go do something about the problem.

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Frog, I hope for your sake you do not find yourself outside of the US at the mercy of foreigners without support as you advocate. You really twisted my replies meaning. These events occur in international waters, not foreign countries, and US citizens sail these waters daily. I was referring to the CG in domestic waters turning their backs on local tax evaders to illuminate my response to rolmops question . My references were to convey my opinion, not factual evidence presented for manipulative cross-exam. Sorry you missed my point.

My job demands I place 18-22yr old kids off to sea on US Merchant Vessels that ply the waters where these pirates roam. I'm certain your opinion would be swayed if one of these placements had a familiar face. My objectivity suffers on this subject.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Mops, a sizeable percentage of ship's officers and engineers on foreign flag ships with US affiliation are US citizens. Using your proposal as a model, should local police refuse to protect and serve anyone driving a Toyota or Mercedes? Should the coast guard refuse to aid any private vessels registered in Delaware because the owners may be avoiding state tax? Should the US turn it's back when pirates are attacking foreign flag cruise ships with women and children on board? I think it in everyones' best interest to eliminate the threat regardless of the victims' affiliation. Tomorrow, it may be one of us.

We already work like this.
eg.
DWB
USCG Kennedy search
many examples of favoritism - profiling - golden rule, whatever.

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

We already work like this.
eg.
DWB
USCG Kennedy search
many examples of favoritism - profiling - golden rule, whatever.

I'm not certain I understand your response or how it relates to protecting Merchant Vessels.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I could say the same about yours which I quoted.
My point was that your statement is naive.
I don't mean any offense.
It's just that everyone does not get equal treatment.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I wasn't gonna post to this one, but i just had to.


This might be bordering on a political post, and i don't wish it to be, but the people who commit these lawless acts must be treated as the barbarians, that they are.

We lost something here in this country, the right to feel safe in our own homes and country.

When we allow the lawless to win small battles, it makes them more brazen.

Years back pirates took over a cruise ship, maybe some might remember this, and threw a guy in a wheel chair off the boat.

Why?

Cause they could !

Heres a little story thats true, Teddy Roosevelt sent an ambassador, to a small African nation to speak to the king.

So what does this king do, takes hostage the guy.

Demands all kinds of money, pigs, goats who knows.

What does Teddy do sends back a message, give me back the guy and we'll forget it ever happened.

The king tells Teddy yo i'm king for life and fu, i'm gonna kill this guy slow.
Give me what i ask for, or tell his widow how he died. And cause you had the nerve to argue with me, send me a few camels too, maybe a female or 2 cause i'm tired at looking at my 25 wives.

Teddy sends like all of the navy there, now mind you it ain't like today, takes weeks months for this stuff to happen.

When the navy loaded to the gills with marines, army, whatever big, big guns
gets there, Teddy himself goes there and is on the ship.

He sends one last message to the king, ether i get my guy back alive or i'll have you head on a stick in my office it's up to you, you have three days or whatever.

2 days latter the guy is on the boat with Teddy.

"Talk softly but carry a big stick"

 

[oddjob]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Hi Chief, nice story. I really wish that the government didnt take 40 cents of every dollar that the oil businesses sell to you and me. Why then they could really make a profit dont ya think? I love oil, I wish I had more of it. If you truly want to know why we are/were the worlds police I suggest googling the words "Sea Power".

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

You have point there maybe we do have to take the lead. But other country's have a navy also. Where are they?

Heres a nice lite read. Googled it.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/sea.htm

PS the mods gonna get us for this post ?

I for one don't want to get on there bad side.

 

[oddjob]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

That was a concisely LITE read..Dont worry about the mods...I'm already on thier bad side....besides its not our fault that polititcal policy here (in America) and abroad affects the well being of citizens and common families around the world. Surely Iboats would want us to keep abreast of maritime and global boating affairs?.....

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I could say the same about yours which I quoted.
My point was that your statement is naive.
I don't mean any offense.
It's just that everyone does not get equal treatment.

I have been a Merchant Marine officer since 1981. I sailed the world under military and national ensigns. I am the Director of Marine Engineering Laboratories at the United States Merchant Marine Academy and a Marine Engineering Instructor. I am actively engaged in creating security protocol for cadets sailing in threatened zones in response to the rise in piracy. Any statements I made on this subject are definitely not naive, but based on first hand experience and real time conveyence from colleagues in the field directly affected by the rise in maritime piracy.

I'm not calling for equal treatment (not sure where that came from), I am advocating that the US takes action to squelch the rise in piracy globally before US citizens and ships fall helplessly victim to the current plague. That would require intradiction in territorial and international waters regardless of the colors hoisted on the victimized vessel.

Sorry for the resume and the preaching, but this issue is now front and center for me daily.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

oddjob, "Surely Iboats would want us to keep abreast of maritime and global boating affairs?." we have no problem, it is when the thread gets ugly, we intervene. i have not commented on this, because i could not do it in a gentleman manner. i will just say, there is no way they would board my boat.

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Chiefalen
If that is light reading to you , you might enjoy this course we just developed:


HH100 HISTORY OF SEA POWER

Second Term, AY 2008-2009​

Figure 1: The American Line Steamship St. Louis, circa 1895​

1. Contact Information

2. Course Catalog Description
An introduction to the circumstances and traditions of seafaring, the concept of sea power and its applications, the strategic doctrines and military history of the U.S. Navy, and the origins and consequences of federal maritime policy in the twentieth century

3. Course Objectives

• To introduce the history of American seafaring and policy
• To introduce the history of the United States Navy
• To develop skills in analytical thought and interpretive writing

4. Student Learning Outcomes
On completion of this course, students are expected to:

• Have a knowledge of American maritime history that will acquaint them with persistent trends and issues in the merchant marine.
• Have a knowledge of the history and traditions of the United States Navy to prepare midshipmen for commissioning in the MMNR.
• Have the ability to write a brief historical essay using secondary sources, correctly citing borrowed ideas, concepts, and quotes.

5. Texts
Book issued to each Midshipman by Academy Bookstore:
Kenneth J. Hagan, This People's Navy: The Making of American Sea Power

Alex Roland et al., The Way of the Ship: America?s Maritime History Reenvisioned, 1600-2000 Books available on the course Blackboard? site:[/font]​

? Joshua M. Smith, ed. Voyages: Documents in American Maritime History[/font]

6. Class attendance policy

• All students are expected to attend all scheduled classes. [/font]
• Attendance will be taken by the Midshipman Section Leader and reported to the Commandant?s Office. [/font]
• Only designated authorities can authorize class absence.[/font]
• The dates for the mid-term exam have been or will be announced. These are scheduled graded exercises that Midshipmen may not miss because they are standing watch. [/font]
• Any Midshipman who misses six (6) or more classes, that is to say more than 15% of the scheduled classes, will be reported to the Head of the Department and may be assigned a grade of involuntary withdrawal (W). This grade cannot be remediated; the course must be repeated. This action is triggered by six (6) absences, whether excused or not. PLAN AHEAD; USE ABSENCES SPARINGLY.[/font]

7. Graded Work and Grading Policy[/font]
? QuizzesShort quizzes will normally be given once a week. Quizzes missed because of authorized absence will not be counted; quizzes missed because of unauthorized absence will receive a failing grade.[/font]
No make-up quizzes will be provided.[/font]

? Exams: Mid-term (20%) and Final (20% of final gradeThe mid-term will consist of an essay and identification items covering the first half of the term. The final exam is similar in format to the mid-term, but will be given during the finals week at a time set by the Registrar. [/font]

• Papers (20% of final grade)[/font]

Midshipmen will write four formal two-page papers based on material from the textbook(s), and Voyages. Two papers will be written before the mid-term exam and two after. BONUS: if your first three papers receive an ?A? grade, you do not have to write a fourth paper.[/font]

? VOYAGES assignments (20% of final grade)
Midshipman will write each week a one page handwritten paper in which he or she records their impressions of the weekly readings from Voyages, which can be found in electronic format on the course?s Blackboard? site.


8. Statement on Plagiarism, Cheating and Ponies
Plagiarism is a serious academic crime that can result in your expulsion from the Academy. It is also very easy to detect. Cheating on quizzes or exams can result in a failing grade for the term and/or action by the Honor Board or Commandant?s Office. Ponies?using someone else?s work from a previous term?is regarding as cheating in this class.

10. Missing Work[/font]
Missing papers or uncompleted work is a serious matter. Should a midshipman neglect to hand in one of his/her short essays, the result will be a grade of zero for all short papers?20% of your final grade.

2nd Term AY 2008-2009​

Week 1 (Nov. 12-14)
Thurs: Introduction to Sea Power
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Colonial Seafarers?

Week 2 (Nov. 16-21)
Tue: Road to Revolution
Optional Paper 01: Colonial Sailors (optional)
Thurs: Warfare in the Age of Sail
QUIZ: Hagan, Chapter 1
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Revolution Afloat?

Week 3 (Nov. 24-25)
Tue: War of Independence
Optional Paper 02: ?War of Independence at Sea?

****THANKGIVING BREAK****​

Week 4 (Dec. 1-5)
Tues: The Heroic Age
Thurs: Creating the USN
QUIZ: Roland et al, Chapters 11-14
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Westward by Boat?

Week 5 (Dec. 8-12)
Tue: Early Steam
Optional Paper 03: Inland Navigation
Thurs: New York Port
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 15-16
Fri: VOYAGES: ?The Golden Age?

Week 6 (Dec. 15-19)
Tue: Antebellum Navy
Optional Paper 04: Born to Rule the Seas?
Thurs: Maritime Zenith
QUIZ: Roland et al., 17-19
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Slaves and Sailors?

****HOLIDAY BREAK****​

Week 7 (Jan. 5-9)
Tue: Civil War (1)
Thurs: Civil War (2)
QUIZ: Roland et al, Chapters 21-23
Fri: MID TERM EXAM

Week 8 (Jan. 12-15)
Tue: Industrialized Shipping
Thurs: TBA
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 24-27
Fri: VOYAGES:?Free Ships and Protectionism?

Week 9 (Jan. 19-23)
Tue: Rise of Maritime Labor
Optional Paper 05: Post Bellum Problems
Thurs: The Odyssey of Captain Healy
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 28-30
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Maritime Labor Troubles?

Week 10 (Jan. 26-30)
Tue: Post Bellum Navy
Optional Paper 06: Yankee Hell Ships
Thurs: Steel Navy
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 31-32
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Navalism and Empire?

Week 11 (Feb. 2-6)
Tue: Radical Labor
Optional Paper 07: Mahan and Battleships
Thurs: War on the Horizon
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 33-35
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Inter-War Issues of Race and Labor?

Week 12 (Feb. 9-13)
Tue: Atlantic War
Optional Paper 08: Between Wars
Thurs: Pacific War
QUIZ: Hagan, Chapter 11
Fri: VOYAGES: ?Two Ocean War?

Week 13 (Feb. 16-20)
Tues: Cold War Navy
Optional Paper 09: Sea Power and the Second World War
Thurs: The Navy and a Changing Society
QUIZ: Hagan, Chapter 12
Fri: VOYAGES, ?Cold War Navy?

Week 14 (Feb. 23-27)
Tues: Post-War Maritime Labor
Optional Paper 10: The Navy?s Cold War
Thurs: Cold War & Sealift
QUIZ: Roland et al., Chapters 39-42
Fri: VOYAGES, ?The War on Terror?


Definitely alot of LITE reading, but very informative

"The Way of the Ship: Americas maritime history reenvisioned 1600-2000" by Alex Roland (Wiley & Sons, 2007) is a good choice in my opinion for a starting point if you are interested in the development and plight of the US Merchant Marine and Sea Power.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Woa i'm having trouble reading a menu in a diner.

Young guy stuff.

Tash I can't find the words to describe what would happened if someone uninvited tried to board my boat. Same would go for if someone did intentional harm to one of my children or wife.

But 2 words should do "toe tag".

 

[angus63]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I just finished reviewing a brief generated by the DOT Maritime Administration (MARAD) highlighting the trickle down effect during this severe economic turndown to all US taxpayers resulting from this rise in piracy. 40% of polled US flag and US affiliated marine shipping corporations with Mediterranean/ Middle-Eastern itinerary have rerouted their ships to avoid the Suez passage. The additional time and costs to round the Cape to avoid Africa's northeastern shores is and will be passed on to US consumers. Since 90+% of imports and exports move over water, the costs are not trivial since shipping costs are often a large percentage of the imports retail cost.

The tolls collected by Egypt for a Suez passage are a sizeable portion of the country's income. The Egyptian Navy is engaged in "patrolling" the affected region, but it is doubtful they will act on their neighbors unless the loss of revenues has a significant impact.

DOD reps are hinting at a larger USN presence in the region from ship's berthed in Diego Garcia. We'll see.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

I have read in different articles that the following numbers of warships are patroling the Gulf of Aden...you almost need a scorecard at this point.
15 UN ships,
7 US ships from the 5th flleet,
1 from India - considering 4 (more?), an Indian warship foiled an attempted attack 11/11.
Yemen Coast Guard
Egypt (who makes the money from the Suez tolls and has already paid ransom for one hijacked vessel) has said today they are willing to join the multinational efforts - go figure!
Russia is sending a destroyer to relieve a missile frigate,
A French frigate,
and probably a partridge in a pear tree.
Obviously, the world is concerned about this and I think the pirates opportunities are going to dwindle quickly.

I have heard nothing of air support...anyone?

 

[Benny1963]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

destroy without mercy .
its the only thimg they understand unfortunatly violence .
must sometimes be met with the same .

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Maybe some US involvement now

Now the multi-national forces are saving these morons!

Give this a read ....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/12/04/yemen.pirates/index.html

"Admiral" Jay Merrill would have ordered a gun drill on his frigate ... "what, Ensign? You accidentally blew up a small boat with a bunch of guys in it with RPGs and AKs? Shame on you - no rum for you today!"