Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

kingzoo2

Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
15
OK...who is going to break the news to the boating industry that we are in a recession and credit is tight and inventory is high and it is time to follow every other industry out there and lower prices. The more web sites I go to and dealers I talk to, the more frustrated I get. I have made two offers at NADA where the asking price is 30%-40% over NADA. Also, If you have a 2007 boat that didn't sell(because of price),it is not a NEW boat anymore -it is 2 years old. Perhaps there is a finance 101 professor out there somewhere that can teach them about inventory turnover and that "cash is king".

There,I feel much better.
 

tx1961whaler

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
5,197
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

This is one case where the "magic hand" of the free market (which works well for things you don't need, like boats....) will correct things. Unfortunately, it's going to be more like a balled up fist that is going to pound most dealers and manufacturer's into oblivion. Sadly, this will ruin many people's livelihood as a result. :(
 

triumphrick

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Man, where are you?? I have dealers all around this area listing their NEW boats on craigslist and with some pretty good pricing. Also, have you heard of ProLine boats? They have just introduced a new line of boats that are no frills and very competitive. I don't know of too many 22' CC with a 150 you can buy for 22K??!!
Anyway, it's not all doom and gloom, however don't tell that to Brunswick employees. It seems as tho their Sea Ray plant in Tennesse is being idled.
Here are a couple of links to some of the above...

http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=228139&posts=2

http://www.proliteboats.com/index.html
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

First, you need to understand that NADA is a "guide" and is not the gospel. Second, no "guide" can keep up with what is going on in the market place -- especially this one. It will always be at least one month and possibly more behind. Third, make sure what you are looking at and what NADA is pricing are actually 100% the same. Price an outboard powered boat and that price will not include an engine, trailer or accessories. Price an I/O and it will not include a trailer and accessories. Boat, car, airplane and truck shopping requires a logical and systematic approach. Using NADA is not the first tool in the bag. Useful yes, but certainly not the only one and certainly not the most accurate. If you are buying used, your local newspaper classifieds is a good starting point. Throw out the highest and lowest price for a given boat and you have an average. Then there is E-bay and Craigs list. If buying new, use the internet to your advantage. You have an infinite number of dealers that you can research. Some list prices on current production and some don't but last years models (non-current as they are called) can be used to get an idea what they sold for last year.
 

Rocky_Road

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
1,798
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

If you think that the boating industry is just 'whistling past the graveyard' now...hang on to your seat, when the gas goes back up to the $4 range!

There will be dealers shutting down...and Going Out of Business sales...galore!

But, then again...Congress just may decide that Bayliner, is just "too big" to allow to fail....

Hang on to your rigs...they may be your only 'hedge' against the falling dollar!
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,313
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

If credit is so tight why I'm I still getting 2-3 credit applications a day in the mail? :confused::confused:
 

Rocky_Road

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
1,798
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

If credit is so tight why I'm I still getting 2-3 credit applications a day in the mail? :confused::confused:

Fannie Maes? Freddie Macs?

Fill in your address...put an X on the signature line.

Free money...!
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

There never has been a huge profit in building or selling boats, most companies barely make it even in the good times. Dealers have been selling boats at cost or less just to get some cash flow, this may not always be a great deal less than the normal price only because the markup wasn't all that much to begin with. I can't imagine not being able to find a great deal on a boat or RV right now.
 

Rocky_Road

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
1,798
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

There never has been a huge profit in building or selling boats, most companies barely make it even in the good times. Dealers have been selling boats at cost or less just to get some cash flow, this may not always be a great deal less than the normal price only because the markup wasn't all that much to begin with. I can't imagine not being able to find a great deal on a boat or RV right now.

I would venture to guess that the boat dealers, would follow the car dealer's mantra...the real 'cash cow', is in their service department.

Get the product out, and on, the water...and watch them stand in line, to pay $80/hr (plus parts) to feed their addiction!

Anyone who has bought a boat, learns that the first check they wrote, will probably end up being the cheapest....

Kind of like computer printers...give them (for all practical purposes) away, and keep the ink cartridge replacement racks fully stocked.
 

superpop

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
869
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

In my opinion there has never been a better time to buy a new boat if you are in the market. I just picked up a 2 year old repo that looks brand new. and I payed less than half of what it cost new 2 years ago. There is a bright side to all of this. The economy will come back and when it does I think things will stabilize a bit in this industry. If there is too much manufacturing capacity that will correct itself and drive the cost of boats back up. All about supply and demand.
 

reelfishin

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
3,050
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

From what I've seen around here, it seems the dealers are trying to hit those who are interested in a boat extra hard to make up for all of those that aren't buying.
I stopped at one local dealer this week, they jacked up the prices by about 20% on everything and won't budge.
I went looking for a bare bones 16' aluminum hull to hang a 25h tiller motor on and a pair of seats and found that the cheapest boat I could buy in that class was over $3000. I'm not talking about a boat with trailer, just a bare aluminum row boat. I bought the same basic boat back in 2001 for $900 brand new.
The only boats that are cheap are the really large cabin boats, they're all but free now. The marina's are running ads trying to get rid of them. People are abandoning them in bulk lately. The cheaper fuel costs recently hasn't seemed to quell the surge in abandoned boats either. People just don't have the cash to keep them, it's not only fuel costs, they can't even afford the dry dock fees.

I've been offered some pretty nice boats for free, but there's just no market for them and I myself don't care to have a boat that costs me even if I'm not running it.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Brunswick, along with many manufactures are idling plants. they are going to sit back, hurting the employees, but they are going to sell the stagnant inventory, before they build more. thus when the ecomomy turns around they are hoping to recoup their money on the existing inventory.
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

I hate to see anyone laid off or furloughed, but from my vantage point Brunswick is doing exactly what it needs to do to stay a viable successful company that will ultimately be able to keep the largest amount of their employees working while we go through this period of unpredictable change.

Let's just hope the media has this one wrong and are Y2King how bad it will be, and by the end of 09 boats will be selling again.

$4 gas in 2010, I will still boat. I boated more last year than I have in years. I feel like I have a raise without paying my gas bill, but I will keep boating in some form.
 

kaferhaus

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
250
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Perhaps there is a finance 101 professor out there somewhere that can teach them about inventory turnover and that "cash is king".

I explained all of this in another thread on the same topic...

A "dealer" realizes NO cash infusion if he sells a boat at or below cost. ZERO, NONE, NADA. In fact he has to write a check which puts him in a worse cash position.

The manufacturers don't care about boats that have been already sent to dealers so far as cash is concerned as they've already been paid for the boat by the bank. The dealer "pays" for the boat once he sells it. In the interim the dealer is paying "floor plan interest" on his inventory. Depending on his status with the lender this is either .6 to 1.5% per month once the "Free flooring" period has expired. Depending on the mfg, the dealer could get as much as 6 months "grace" before the boat goes on floor plan interest.

So maybe a boat is off the grace and the dealer is paying 1% a month on the balance he owes (just say he owes 20,000 for argument's sake).. once he sells that boat he has to write a check for $20,000. His "cost" is actually a good bit higher than that, he's had to keep the boat clean, "demo it" a number of times and likely has some dealer installed extras on the boat.

So, he's out $200 a month in interest on this boat... selling you the boat at cost is how much? and he can't pay the first "operating" expense with what's left over so he's in the hole.

Now you want to buy the boat below cost... he's stupid to sell it too you as it puts his cash situation backwards, he gains nothing... the little interest he's paying every month will carry that boat a long time over the thousands you want him to pay up front to dump the boat.

And it's exactly why so many dealers are going BK instead of blowing boats out. It makes more sense financially to just walk away instead of selling your house, raiding the kids college fund etc. so some guy can get the great deal he wants.

Dealers close when their floor plan expense exceeds their income, they close the doors and walk away. Until then they will continue to try and save their business but you cannot do it by letting your cash situation move backwards.

Cash keeps you open, writting checks to cover losses does not.
 

haskindm

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
255
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

OK... Also, If you have a 2007 boat that didn't sell(because of price),it is not a NEW boat anymore -it is 2 years old.

I am sorry, but you are incorrect: It is still a new boat until it is titled.
It should sell for less than a current year boat, but certainly not at NADA prices for a used boat. It is untitled and will probably still have a full warranty. Some outboard manufacturers are no longer identifying their engines by model year for this very reason - it is new until it is sold. I don't know why we are hung up on model years when talking about cars or boats. Nobody cares what year their vacuum cleaner was built, just that it does the job....
 

kingzoo2

Cadet
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
15
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Regarding pricing and floor plan...I saw your explanation and agree with you in the short term. In the long term(like this recession) the inventory has to move to get cash in. Maybe it is the bankers who do not have a clue. The auto industry seems to have figured it out...you can move inventory at a book loss to get cash so you can stay alive. Nobody goes BK from having no book income...in 100% of the BKs that have ever happened - it has always been a shortage of cash. I gues we wait until the bankers are walking the docks trying to sell the boats.

Regarding the 2 year old boats and NADA...if the boat was not worth 45k in 2006 when they got it in inventory - it is not worth near that today after it has been through 2 winters in the waters and has 30 hours of test drives on it. There is reason a boat sits for 2-3 years...PRICE.

I was looking at a boat online - the 2009 is no different than the 2008...except for the price - 20% higher on their web site - and there are plenty of 2008 on line - what are these guys thinking
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

There are many different agreements out there between dealers and builders, both are trying to move boats. Builders are trying keep building just to keep the plants open, if this means no profit, or a slight loss, that's less costly than closing the doors, that is unless you plan to just walk away. Some RV builders have walked because of how the contracts were worded, dealers bought the units and the builder agreed they would buy back unsold inventory. When the crash hit there was no way for the builder to buy back all of the units and they had no choice but to go out of business. When things started to slow down some boat builders kept making boats longer than they should have and ended up with parking lots full of unspoken for boats, some even had to lease land to store them. There were many odd arrangements made by desperate companies (builders and dealers) to get these boats sold, if that meant moving boats to the dealer for no up front money that was OK, just sell them and pay later. Many of these boats and RV's may be gone now and it may be back to a more normal builder/dealer relationship.

There are probably many more people looking at smaller less expensive boats (small aluminum), so if that's what's in demand why would they heavily discount them.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Yes, dealers have to pay the bank when they sell a boat, but what they pay is the wholesale price that they acquired the boat for, not the retail price. Since markdown is a function of retail price, the idea that no dealer will use discounting as a way to move inventory simply isn't correct - they do it all the time.

The decision making process is not complicated. If inventory isn't moving, and you need to reduce your debt load, you shed that debt. In better times, you may chose to factor in things like overhead, test rides, etc. In times like these, many dealers will not have that luxury, and will simply make a decision on wholesale price to be paid to the bank, plus interest expense incurred to date. If there is an ability to get rid of the boat at a price that covers those two items, many will do it.

Its also incorrect to assume that having to pay the bank the principal on the loan will affect the dealers cash position. When the buyer takes delivery of the boat, the dealer receives cash and that is used to pay the bank. The net effect, unless the boat has been sold at less the principal owed, is cash neutral at that point in time. Even if the interest expense is not recouped, to an extrememly stressed dealer that is water over the dam. Like the other expenses, the money is already gone and the dealer is just trying to keep from going under by carrying debt that he/she can't service.

While I have no doubt that many business people make bad decisions about debt and inventory, that doesn't mean that all do. Not all will sit around and allow debt to drive them into bankruptcy, instead of moving the inventory, tightening "the belt" and concentrating on other aspects of the business that do make money.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are deals to be found, and dealers that won't budge on price eventually find that out. They end up being the ones who sit on inventory and survive only if they have large cash reserves.
 

kaferhaus

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
250
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Well..... the cost of producing boats went up enormously in 2008... oil prices at over $160 a barrel affected raw materials costs, transportation etc. and I'm sure there were pay raises given all the way around...

You are correct about "cash" and that was my entire point... so many people have no idea that cash pays the bills. If a dealer cannot put cash in his pocket on a sale then he's stupid to make the deal.

And it's not the banks fault either. Our economic situation is very complicated and unfortunately since we've bought into this "global economy" BS and allowed these megolithic corporations to move their manufacturing and even some service industries overseas so that the officers can continue to get tens of millions of dollars in "bonuses" this is the result.

We're all to blame, you, me and everyone else who sat on our hands and allowed the Chinese, Mexico and every third world country in the world take our jobs and then sell the crap back to us.

The unions for insisting that a guy that stands on an assembly line and performs unskilled or at best semi skilled labor deserves to be paid $40 bucks an hour when his counterpart is making 15 bucks an hour and the cost of those products cannot be matched by his...

We allowed banks to "invent" new "investment tools" that were nothing but a house of cards. Huge mergers are being approved almost every week that allows the giants to stem any competition..

We manufacture next to nothing in this country any longer and as a "consumer" that can be good because prices are cheap... but the consumer also has to have a job to buy those products... the "good" jobs have been slowly leaving this country for decades and that's been promoted by both big business and the government for at least 30yrs. People sit on their hands waiting for the govt to do something... but the government is in bed with big business (all of them, dems and republicans) as big business has all the lobbyists makes the huge donations etc. yet we don't write or call our elected officials and complain... we just wait for them to do something... well they're doing it and we're all suffering for it.

The catch 22 is if we "disengage" from the "global economy" consumer prices of many things will go up making it harder for average guys to own "luxury" items like boats. But stable manufacturing jobs would return.

Well I got way off topic.... sorry.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,313
Re: Recession-Boating Industry-Volunteers Needed

Fannie Maes? Freddie Macs?

Fill in your address...put an X on the signature line.

Free money...!

The usual. Chase, AMX, the Airlines cards. I had 2 "live" unsolicited credit cards sent to my house in the last 10 days. Just call the number on the back of the card and spend away.

To be honest my credit scores are not exactly average and it certainly doesn't hurt when my total debit, including mortgage, is roughly 1/2 of my yearly income.;)
 
Top