Starcraft construction question

[freeisforme]

I've been watching here for some time before joining, so this is my first post here.
I've read all the horror stories about water logged boats and pretty much anticipated having to go through some major repairs on my latest find, a '72 Starcraft Capri trihull.

First off, the boat looks to have been super well kept, it came from a barn, with apparently very little use on it. The interior was more dryrotted than worn or faded, and the hull and transom so far seem bone dry. What I do have is a crack in the wood deck, it looks to have 1/2" plywood run crossways, with a seam ever 4" and a very thin layer of glass and resin. It's all done in color, which matches the boat, so I am sure it's original.
The last seam, which falls just below the front edge of the splashwell, is separated, I can lift the panels apart enough to get a lit mirror down inside, and I see no foam, nothing, it appears as if they just glassed the bare edges of the plywood together and used a few small clips to keep the edges secure? The stringers are intact, but I see no under support for the edges of the plywood, not there or any other joints. It almost just looks like the edges just broke apart or what ever was used to attach the seam gave way. The rest of the floor is perfect, solid as a rock. But I'd venture to bet if I stomped my foot on any of the other seams, they would also break apart.

Does anyone have any experience with one of these boats?
Does what I describe sound familiar?

I would bet money on the fact that if I could resecure the two panels as one again all would be fine with a fresh coat of glass and resin on top. There is no rot in the plywood, no sign of rot back in the bilge where the bilge pump sits, and the transom core sample is mint.
I was very leary of the transom since someone had installed a huge polished stainless panel under the motor, but after removing it, I see nothing but some glue stains where they stuck it to the transom. The transom was never drilled, and the hull is perfect in every other way.

My goal is to reoutfit this boat as a fishing boat for river use, I plan to remove all the interior, leave it as bare bones as I can, make the deck as hose down cleanable as I can, and add a casting deck where the two bowrider seats are now. The motor is came with runs fine, a fresh impellor and a set of plugs should keep it going for a long time. Here's a pic from the ad I answered, I'll get some new pics as soon as we get a good sunny day outside for me to pull it out and start working in it.

 

[matthewp]

Re: Starcraft construction question

I'm not sure about how they did it in '72. My '85 has aluminum strips running along the underside of each plywood joint. Both sections of plywood are riveted to this band of aluminum, tying them together. Depending on where you're looking under the floor, there may yet be foam under it. As I began tearing my floor up, it didn't look like there was any. Turns out that it was there, but not where the floor rotted through.

It's a little early for me to be giving solid advice on how to correct your issue. Hopefully some of the experienced guys will chime in. Good luck with your ride!

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: Starcraft construction question

Matthew, yours is typical of aluminum hulled Starcrafts. Free's is fiberglass. The three Starcraft American's I've rebuilt all had wood 1x2s as a backer at the plywood seams. The deck was stapled down onto what I guess was (at the time) wet resin & glass to "glue" it down. Resin isn't a very good glue, so it's entirely possible it has lifted (as it had on mine). I would imagine yours was built similarly to mine, although yours is earlier, so they may have beefed up the seams in later models. When I redid mine I stuck with the 1x2 backers, but screwed the deck down and bedded it in epoxy. You could dance on the sole in my boats...
- Scott

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

I think the American is the V hull equivalent of the Capri, they look very similar.
The Capri was the same from at least 1972 to 1977, I had a 1977 years ago, and there's very little difference between that boat and this one.
Do the 1x2 strips just sit across the stringers?
I hate to rip out the whole sole just to fix a bad seam. The rest of the sole is rock solid. Even the plywood where the seem is loose is clean and not rotted. I did find two pieces of what looked like 1x2 coated in resin laying in the bottom, it looks like it just broke apart at several knots in the wood. I don't see any fastener marks though.

I was thinking about maybe taking a 4" wide strip of aluminum and riveting it to the back side of the seam, then just put a layer of glass down over it. If I walk on the seam, the plywood flexes between the supports or stringers, but only because I'm standing on an unsupported edge.

I was thinking though of raising the sole about an inch, this would eliminate the humps created by the two outer hulls in front of both seats. The floor would then be totally flat.

I was really expecting to see the hull filled with foam down below, but it's completely clean, all of the flotation is in the cap, the entire top cap is filled, the gunwales, dash top, and both areas next to the splashwell are foam filled.

The boat is surprisingly light, me an a buddy lifted it off the trailer it came on and slid it up onto a roller trailer last night. Two guys could easily lift one end. We just picked it up, turned it sideways on the bunk trailer, backed the roller trailer up to the bow, and pushed it over onto the new trailer. I was amazed at how light that boat is for being a 17' 1" hull with a 82" beam.
I was guessing the weight to be around 1200lbs when I first saw it, and was thinking that the 50hp motor might be a bit too small, but after seeing how light the hull is, I think it may do just fine.
The trailer it's on now weighs only 560lbs, I took the boat over to a nearby truck scale just to see what it weighs minus the motor and interior and was surprised when the boat and trailer weighed in at only 1380lbs. That makes the bare hull only 820lbs. That weight was with no fuel, fuel tank, controls or motor, and with the seats and trim removed. The Coast Guard plate says it's rated at a max of 135hp or 1140 lbs. (I do have a good running Evinrude 88SPL that would go well on this but the motor it came with runs great).
I'm only looking for a fishing platform for the rivers here, nothing super fast or fancy. The simpler the boat the better. Its getting wired for an anchor light, bow light, and dash lights. I'm adding a bilge pump, changing the way the Bimini top mounts and tossing the heavy back to back seats in favor of two aluminum pedstals and plastic swivel seats. No carpet, no side trim, and a half dozen flush rod holders. I'll run two portable 6 gallon tanks, toss the steel built in tank, and add a forward casting platform and pedestal seat with some storage below.

I'd like to glass over the whole deck and make it easy to clean, there's no way I'll put that green carpet back in, and the original seats and trim weighed in at over 400 lbs. All that marine ply and seat frame wood sure added up, not to mention all the indoor outdoor carpet. The steel 12 gallon tank weighted about 14 lbs, the two rear sliding doors below the splashwell were made of some sort of paper composite, which weighed about 25 lbs all by themselves. If the boat did ok with all that weight in it, it should do a lot better after going on a diet.

Might anyone have a pic of a Starcraft of this era with the sole removed?

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

CW, I was just looking at your Share a project pics on your 76 American, the rear of you boat looks identical to my 73 Capri. If you look at your pic #6432, of the rotted wood, mine is the same design, with a box formed closer to the bilge opening, which is only about 10 wide x 12" long. The three stringers end at that last cross brace, then the center stringer extends to the bilge compartement and the outer stringers end as in your pic. The seem that is separated is about 3" past the that last cross brace, in mid air. There are two sections of 1x2 wood laying there, still in good shape but no longer attached. The stringers are solid as is the plywood. The plywood is coated with a very light coat of resin and a very sparse layer of chopped glass. (Kneeling on the floor will get you all sorts of glass splinters as the glass is not completely wetted with resin). The resin is green in color and matches the outer hull color and the inner upper hull.

Why wouldn't they put the seam in the plywood over a support? The seam that is separated is right at the front edge of the splashwell, so it gets very little weight directly.

Did you enlarge your bilge opening? On this one, there's barely enough room to get a small bilge pump in place and not kink the hose coming out of the hole. I can lift the plywood at the seams just enough to get a borescope in to look around up front, but can get a pretty good view of things under that last panel.

Although it may not be the right way to fix this, I think an easy way to fix it would be to lay a 3/8" layer of ply over the entire sole and glass it all down. But I'm leaning towards snaking in a piece of aluminum and riveting the original deck to it, then just putting down a few layers of mat and resin and making a smooth, washable surface that I can paint as needed. I'm not a big fan of carpet or Nautolex, and bed liner is too costly. I have considered Tuff Coat though but I think plain old epoxy paint and some sand is cheaper.

The goal isn't to be pretty, just functional. The boat won't see big water and if I decide it's a keeper down the road, I can do something fancier then. Chances are though, I'll most likely just stumble across something else long before that time comes.
At this point, I have nothing invested, and it runs as is.

I still haven't figured out why they put that stainless panel on the back, it's only .018" thick and is glued on. The transom wood is solid and I can stand on the outdrive will all of my 300lbs and nothing moves, so I don't think the transom is an issue. The wood is visable from the inside under the splashwell, it's not encased and the upper wing areas are separate. The wood also don't go all the way to the sides. It looks about like your transom wood did, but the two upper sections are not attached, the main transom is one piece below the level of the splashwell, and runs to about 4" or so from each side, the upper sections are separate. I'd venture to guess I could nearly snake out the transom wood from below if it were't for the fact that its trapped by the splashwell and cap in the center pretty tight. The two outer wing areas would most likely come out if I removed the two stern eye bolts.
The bilge area is completely resined in though, but the resin don't go all the way up, the inner transom is only coated about like the floor is, sort of a light scattering of chopped glass on wet resin. Its coated just enough to make the stray chopped glass sharp and splintery to touch.

The wood that is visable looks like new, there's no dark or wet areas and no rot to be found. The last registration on the boat is 1974, so it only saw 2 years of use, the motor is a year newer, so chances are it was bought as a leftover and only run for a season before getting stashed in the barn. It was covered in about 6 layers of old tarps and full of all sorts of water skis and fishing gear. The trailer tags also expired in 1974, but the trailer was pretty well beat, the fenders were stomped down from being used as steps, the lights are shot, the springs are pretty rusty and seized from all the years sitting nearly on the ground on flat tires. The tires were rotted completely off the rims, I could pull the tires apart with my hands, the rubber was gummy and sticky. The tongue is bent, it looks like they jack knifed it while backing up. The tongue is about 8' too long for the boat and the boat sits about 30' in the air with the tires on it. It must have been fun to launch like that.
I put it on a newer roller trailer, it sits about 14' off the ground now.

 

[dlngr]

Re: Starcraft construction question

OMG that must be one heck of a top heavy unit to tow.!!!

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: Starcraft construction question

Hello Free,
I did enlarge the bilge opening a bit, as I brought the width straight out to the outer stringers. My transoms were originally similar to yours, but I rebuilt them to full-width and height. I also brought the keel all the way to the transom on mine, rather than ending it a foot short as was originally built. I built mine with the idea that I might someday be able to afford big 4-strokes or clean 2-strokes for them, so I overbuilt the transoms.
Mine have foam filling the space between the outer stringers and the chines. The center tunnel is empty, as was original.
I'm betting the 1x2 sticks you found were originally underneath the seam in question. The 1x2s are sunk into the keel and stringers so it is all flush. They originally used steel staples to attach them, so it is possible the remnants have completely disintegrated on you. And as you noted, their glass application on the floor and elsewhere was less than perfect, so what glass and resin was on the underside wasn't sufficient to keep those 1x2s in place when they cracked at the knots. I would think that if you could get a clamp in there or even some screws to pull it together, a backer board with epoxy might be the way to go to stiffen it up. You could also use the epoxy to seal the topsides, too...

- Scott

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

The keel on mine stops about 18' from the transom, as do both stringers, then they have two closer stringers running back which form the sides of the bilge well. I can see some 1x2 blocks on the inside of the two rear stringer extentions, it sort of looks like they may have been there to support the ends of the floor seam backing boards. The boards are not rotted, and are barely coated with resin at all.
I can only see just a bit forward of the seam, just over that last cross brace to which the keel and stringers end at. What I may do is pull out that last floor panel, then secure some real supports to hold that seam solid. At the same time, open up the bilge opeinging a bit. If not, I'll just slide some aluminum under the seam and rivet it in place along with some epoxy and maybe a piece over the top as well. I don't think 1x lumber is anywhere near strong enough to hold my 300lb self, let alone more than one guy my size or bigger. If this is the way they built the whole sole, I'll have to do something to reinforce it or there's little doubt in my mind that it will give out elsewhere along a seam. I will have to do something to spread out the load to protect the seams.

I tried to get a camera pic of the inside but it's too dark to see anything.

On your boat, with the cap installed, could you see the wood transom exposed? On this on, if you could fit under the splashwell, (I can't), the wood is clearly exposed and barely shot with some chopped glass and resin, it looks like bare wood till you acutally look closer and see some glass hair on the surface. No color at all added to that resin or glass like on the floor.

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

OMG that must be one heck of a top heavy unit to tow.!!!

I don't understand why it would be top heavy?
It's 10 inched lower than my last boat, which sat just over 26" off the ground at the stern when on it's roller trailer. That seems to be a pretty common scenario with a roller trailer? The boat has to sit above the fenders, which with an trihull this width, there's not much choice unless the trailer was over 8' wide. The trailer frame on which it sits now is 61" wide, and fenders are 81" wide outside width. For the boat to sit lower, the frame would need to be over 82" wide, and the fenders would then be over 92" wide, which would also most likely put the GVW of such a trailer way over what is needed to properly carry this boat. I am 6'2" tall, when I walked up to the boat on the original trailer, the gunwales were about chin level, they are now at about chest level, I consider that a great improvement. It also has to be able to fit in my garage, which has 8' wide doors, so a trailer with only a few inches on each side is really pushing a comfortable fit too. With the door jams, safety switches and other items, the opening is more like 91.5".
besides, this trailer was free, I picked it up with another boat last fall for nothing and cut that boat up with a saw. The trailer is only a few years old.
I have a 3500lb GVW trailer, but it's not any wider, only a foot longer, and way too heavily sprung.

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: Starcraft construction question

Free,
The transom core on mine was originally covered in glass/resin, but it pealed off easily when I was taking it out. It had been painted black over the glass on all three of the Americans I redid... I encapsulated the new transom cores with glass and epoxy.
- Scott

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

The basic shape of the stern on your boat looks very much like mine, but I think your stringers and keel are deeper than mine. There is only about 5" from the bottom of the sole to the bottom of the keel in this boat.
The stringers are only short tapered pieces. The space between the bottom of the splashwell cutout and my floor is greater than on yours, I have nearly 12" in that area. The transom wood does not extend down to the floor, its only across the top, about 3" above the floor, then there are side pieces added up top to support the transom eye bolts. The transom is thick, below the wood, but it looks like heavy, blown in glass from a chopper gun. It appears that they tried to build up the lower area of transom in absence of the wood. I wish mine was as deep as yours, I was thinking of putting an in floor cooler or storage box back there, but there's just no depth below the plywood. That last cross brace is about 7" ahead of the front of the splashwell, I could have sunk a cooler I have, which is about 10" deep in there, framing that would have given support to that seam.
I looked again, even lifted the open seam a bit more and the 1x boards are not sunk into the stringers, they are only inbetween. The keel board is solid, not plywood, it looks like about 5" by about 1 1/4" wide, the two outer stringers appear to be 2x3s which taper forward and dissappear as the hull rises inbetween each outer hull. There is a 1x resined to the outer hull around the perimeter to hold the edge of the floor up. The floor is not flat, the edges are slightly lower than the center, sort of like it was meant to drain down each side. This begins where the floor crosses over the humps on each side formed by the trihull shape. The two humps rise through the floor just in front of both seats under the dash, but only about an inch. I'd really like to cover those humps up, it would only take raising the sole about an inch.
The two forward jump seats lift out, but there's not much space under there either, just the humps inbetween the hulls. You might be able to get a small anchor in there or a life jacket or two on each side.

The curvature of the floor left to right is about an inch, and identical on each side, and only noticable where it crosses over the humps. The seats were cut to match this shape as well. I will have to level it somehow to allow me to put aluminum pedestals flat down on the floor.
I may just have to put down a heavier section of plywood to level it? The way it is now, if I try to bolt down the pedestals, I will no doubt crack the cast aluminum bases. Other than that, I'd have to put back the two original back to back seats, which take up far too much room. I like the wide open floor area with just two swiveling pedestal seats.
Another concern is anchoring the pedestals, since where they sit, the hull humps up to the bottom of the floor, they may not be able to be mounted with molly bolts as is normal, but only shorter wood screws? I was thinking also of maybe screwing down a larger panel, with the seat pedestals already attached?

Any ideas on mounting pedestals where there's no depth below the floor?

 

[drewmitch44]

Re: Starcraft construction question

I got to work at 2 so i cant read this much. I made it through the first two freeisforme book posts. When i get home i think i have something to contribute here. See ya at 11:30pm or so.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Starcraft construction question

A few years ago I had a 1973 Starcraft Capri which also had several splits in the floor plywood. Mine had split at the rear seam, just ahead of the splashwell, and just behind the seats. The panels were held together with galvanized H clips, with short sections of one by wood under the seams. There was no keel, just two outer stringers, which looked to be about like 2x3 lumber, they too tapered off to meet the humps formed by the two outer hulls. The transom did not go all the way down, it stopped a few inches from the floor, my transom and complete underside of the splashwell was sprayed with flat black, but not very well, there were a lot of missed areas. The transom wood was basically bare with only a light shot of chopped glass and resin, as were my floors. I had pulled the entire floor out, I cut it free of the sides of the boat, and lifted it out in three sections, None of it was rotted at all, and it was hardly attached at all to the stringers. The hull was surprisingly strong, it probably didn't need any stringers to be rigid due to it's shape. The only foam in mine was what was in the upper cap, the upper sides of the splashwell and a few small sections on the two far outer edges of the floor, it looked like maybe a gallon bucket or two worth of foam dumped in spots in the areas formed by the start of the outer hulls. It was dry, so I left it alone. I vacuumed out the hull, did a few drill tests and all was fine. I added a few crossbraces where the floor seams were to go, resined them in with two layers of glass, I built up the outer supports around the perimeter of the hull where the floor edge rested to level the floor a bit better, recoated the back side of the floor with resin, let it dry.
I then put down several thick beads of 5200 down along the tops of all supporting points for the floor, set the floor back in, used several stainless deck screws to secure it, then sanded and tabbed in the perimeter with some 6" wide fiberglass cloth, coated the entire surface with resin and a thin layer of mat, epoxy painted with two thick coats and all was well. I was thinking of using pedestal seats in mine but the location of the seats and the location of the humps in the hull was a problem, so I opted for two single box type seats, I resined down a few 2x2 mounting blocks and secured the seats that way. I could have just mounted the aluminum pedestals to a sheet of heavier plywood and set that in place with resin but didn't want to make a step in the floor or add that much weight. I had the box seats so they got used. Mine was also green, so finding seats to match can be tough.

On mine, I tossed all the padded trim, it was just padded vinyl on plywood and particle board, so it held water easily. I removed nearly 400 lbs of interior trim, padding, and old seats. The two jump seats in the front were made of two layers of 3/4" marine ply with a pair of 2x3s cut to locate them over the hole they covered. They weighed about 25 lbs each, I cut two 3/4" plywood panels out, carved and shaped them to fit the hole exactly, put on two under tabs so they could only lift out in one direction, then resined and glassed them completely with a stainless lifting eye on top. They looked like they belonged there, and would not blow out on the road.
I did consider adding a casting deck there but it would have been hard to still make use of that space for loading and unloading with a pedestal there, and the support needed to hold a removable pedestal would have wasted the underneath space. It would also have made closing off the under windshield area harder.

The hardest part I had to deal with was filling in the 500 holes left after I removed all the trim, I finally ended up mounting two wood panels down each gunwale to both support the sides of the boat when stepping into the boat, and to fill the holes. It also gave me a solid point to mount the motor controls too while spacing them away from the windshield frame up top. I also tossed the two lower junk holders on each side, I left the glassed on wood, then added two composite side panels in which things like fish scent, sunblock and other bottled items could be stored.
Mine also had a nearly identical Stainless steel rear panel, only on mine, the corners weren't rounded. Mine came to me with a 50 Mercury as well but it was too far gone to mess with and was a short shaft on a 20" transom.
I hung a 70HP Evinrude, the boat just plain flew with that motor.

They are far lighter than they list in the owners manual, mine said it weighed in at about 1100lbs, my hull only weighed about 900 lbs with all the trim and original seats, I had to knock off at least 250 of that and the motor was only in the 230lb range with power tilt and trim.

If your 50 don't have power tilt, you will soon want to add it, with the size of that splashwell, it's nearly impossible to reach the motor or to gain leverage on it from in the boat.
Also, if you intend to use the two rear jump seats, add a pair of legs or supports on each side, they are not very well supported and I've seen several others crack. I just added a small frame below the splashwell, then made two light plexiglass sliding doors to cover the batteries and fuel tanks, I also added a bilge blower to evac that area since it was now closed in.

I think you will like that hull, they are one of the only trihulls I've had that don't beat me to death on the water. Once on plane, they ride as a V hull. While they aren't made for big water, I did have mine in the ocean a few times and I must say I was very surprised at how well it handled the rougher water. On a smooth river or lake, or even a light chop, they run super smooth and handle like their on rails.

 

[freeisforme]

Re: Starcraft construction question

The more I look at CW's pics, the more I like the idea of a larger splashwell.
I've nearly got the entire rear floor panel out, the wood is amazingly in great condition, with no rot at all. The transom is stepped, the one layer of plywood goes just below the floor, the inner layer, stops at the floor. There's a short bridge support of partial keel stringer just before the bilge, but it's not connected to anything, it's just a cut out arch the stands alone. The stringers and keel end ahead of the splashwell. There's very little support for the floor there. There are two outer stringer extentions which run to the transom, they are about 12" from each outer side. the entire center is unsupported other than that one section or bridge looking panel just before the bilge well. The bilge area is open to the area under that last panel. I cut along the edges and have all but the very back edge free, I'll then pull out the rear floor panel, add some support and reinstall it. I'll do a complete resin and glass coat on the floor, re-tab in the sides and seams. Since a human can't fit below the splashwell, I will make that opening much larger with provisions for a bilge pump. There was one in there but its just glued down with some 5200 and plumbed with garden hose. I'm still thinking of raising the floor and leveling it, the uneveness is due to the way the plywood is set over the humps formed by the trihull. A lot would be cured by just laying a new 1/2" sheet of ply down ontop of it all. Besides, it would do wonders for the boats ability to support my 320lb weight over the larger spans of decking. The OEM floor is slighly under 1/2" thick, more like 7/16". A heavier sole would also make mounting those pedestals so much easier.
I plan to bring the boat to my house so I can work on it a little each night soon, hopefully the weather cooperates.

Something I am considering, which would be a major change in the hull, is to cut back the splashwell and the two rear jump seats, and replace the removed section with a full height section of 3/4" ply covered in glass. This would allow me to be able to tilt and reach the motor from in the boat, eliminate two useless jump seats that are only 12" wide or so, and provide a Sea door of sorts. The splashwell on this thing is huge, large enough to tilt an inline 6 Merc into, but I will only be running a Merc 50, and even with the mods, there would still be enough room to tilt a V4. It would give me better access to the bilge area, gain at least 18" of deck space, and most likely not take much strength away from the hull.
The way it is now, the motor is completely out of reach from in the boat without climbing down into the splashwell, which is at best dangerous. The jump seat cutouts are not even wide enough to comfortably kneel on to reach over the back. The remaining splashwell would still be well over 30" long.