I hate car shopping.

[BF]

The thought of replacing the wife's minivan with something newer has been coming to mind more often these days. I'd like to get something better for towing, and that I wouldn't get stuck on the gravel launch at our lake... I'd keep my '03 Montana for when 4wd is not needed. We're a family of 5, so a full sized SUV might work (aside from sucking gas). I should say that I'm cheap, and the last few vehicles I've bought have been 3 or so years old used ones, for which I've paid about 1/3 or what they would have sold for new... Anyway with the economy noise and all the bailout talk (yes up here too), I thought that maybe, just maybe, it'd be worth checking out what new vehicles are going for, maybe there's some deals with 0% financing or something (?)... I haven't yet started doing any real "hard" shopping, but I'm already annoyed. Up here, even mid sized SUV's are still sitting on lots with stickers on them in the $45K+ range. Occasionally I'll see a dealer ad for an '08 Envoy in the low $20's, but it turns out they are used, 1 year old vehicles, and the short ones to boot (no third row seating).... Tahoe's/Yukons/Expeditions are more. Even 5+ years old and 100K+ km ones are advertised in the $12-15K range.

I had just thought with the gas shock last year, and the state of things these days, maybe there'd be some deals on a big ole SUV.

It does gall me how stealerships, er, I mean dealerships work though... you never really know what the price really is until you are putting in an offer and walking out the door. I don't do the "write an offer sheet so I can show it to the boss" thing. I usually just give them a number I'm willing to pay and my phone number and tell them to call me if it will work for them... this business where the sales guy actually has no say and acts as if he's somehow your agent in dealing with the manager just annoys me. These days I don't really know what the current values are, so I think it'll be hard to know what is a good/reasonable price. It appears (?) the values have held higher than I thought. Or maybe it's a canadian thing.

Oh well... gotta do more serious shopping/looking I guess to get a feel for the market.

 

[jkust]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I am in the exact same "boat" as you, and I even have the same minivan to replace for towing duty. I looked at a used Saab 9-7x yesterday (same as an envoy denali but even more upgraded). I got there and they (dealer) actually increased the price from the day before when I saw it on the internet. I test drove it an it was nice but I was annoyed about the price thing and the sales guy could have just cared less. I know these dealerships are strugling but they still are way over priced IMO. I don't want the Tahoe since it will be my wifes car and Tahoes are too big for her and are popular so hold their value better than the trailblazer/envoy/9-7x/Rainier/Isuzus. I am trying to decide between the Extended of the above or the shorter one. Having a minivans for a lot of years spoils you with cargospace.

 

[jrolland]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I own a 2002 trailblazer, the short wheel base, but honestly I have nothing bad to say about them. With a towing capacity of nearly 6000lbs I find it tows my 19 foot ray with no issuses at all. It's smooth on the road and VERY quiet when stopped. So much so that when the engineers were developing it they had to put anti-grind circuitry so you wont try to start it again. I would recomend the trailblazer/envoy/bravada/rainier/9-7x to anyone.

Also if you are in the market for the extra space like the extended wheel base version I would recomend spending some extra time looking for the ext. version with a v8. I tested an ext with the I6 and I found it to be rather slugish with the extra weight and that was with just me in it, no cargo or other people.

 

[redfury]

Re: I hate car shopping.

No talk of the V8 Explorer? We had a similar experience. The wife had a grand am and wanted something taller, but bigger for family trips ( 4 people, 2 schnauzers ).

We were looking at 96-2000 model years and the S10 Blazer based GMs have great power, but the interior is just too small...like a Grand Am on steroids. So, we looked at the Mercury Mountaineer/Ford Explorers. I wanted a V8 if I could get one ( all the mountaineers has was the 8 ) and we found a very clean 96 Explorer with AWD, 5.0v8 fully loaded for just under 3000 with 148k on it...very clean truck. Granted, higher miles, but a nice ride, comfortable and 280 ft/lbs of torque on demand.

I'd go with a Trailblazer/Envoy if I could afford one though for the wife. They are all ( explorer inclued ) not too big without being too small either.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I found its best to decide what you want and then scan autotrader to see what the prices show. You must know what you want and what the price range is before you start going to any lot. Dont let the salesman tell you what its worth.Its hard to find the best deal by window shopping.

 

[IVAZ]

Re: I hate car shopping.

About 3 months ago I got a new truck for the wife. I ended up going to 4 different dealerships. I found the same truck at all of them. I got them to give me a trade in estimate for her Nissan Titan and a price for the GMC she wanted. When I went to the fourth place I told them what I would pay and what they had to give me for my trade in. It was a pain in the rear and it took a full day. In the end I got a little over $10,000 off the MSRP and got them to throw in a bedliner. They gave me $8,600 for a high mileage uncared for Titan (the wife and kids are kinda rough on things). Its not a good experiance but you should be able to get a good deal. After I left from every dealership they would call me on my phone and offer me the truck for less money than when I was there. Leaving the dealership if they start acting silly is a good move on your part.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: I hate car shopping.

Just remember one thing - car salesmen are taught to "maintain control of the sale." The only problem with that approach, is that you are the guy with the checkbook. You will always have control of the sale if you choose to maintain it, because they can't make you write the down payment check.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: I hate car shopping.

They used to never let you walk away. Now it seems like they do let you walk but they call you on the phone immediately. Seems kinda weird to me. When we bought our Pacifica the dealership let us walk out the door knowing full well we were going right down the street to another Chrysler dealer to look at another one, same year, same mileage, same or lower price but with more options. Turned out the one down the street had black leather seats that I refused to have any part of. When we got home there was a message on the machine from the first dealer offering us a better deal. (they had to offer my wife a few even better deals before she bought). Seems like a dumb tactic because we were even more firrm on our price when we weren't standing there looking at the car.

My dream is to buy a car with no trade it. I HATE how they always make it seem like they are doing you this huge friggin' favor by paying off your trade. We owed $11k on our Camry we were trading and they were selling all over the place for $13-14k and they acted like it was this huge deal to give us a few bucks over blue book trade in value. I hate buying cars. I'd rather just tell my wife which one I want and let her go buy it. She seems to enjoy it.

 

[zoe'sdad]

Re: I hate car shopping.

If you are a memeber of Sam's Club, Triple A or Costco they have prenegotiated prices with certain dealerships. You go to their websites and they will direct you to the dealership. Takes the haggling out. Saleperson brings out the book, shows your vehicle's invoice price and then a pre agreed upon mark up is added for their profit. All manufacturer rebates and incintives still apply. Bought my Tundra that way. Cost me $600 over invoice. Ended up paying $22,000 for a $28,000 truck.

 

[IVAZ]

Re: I hate car shopping.

Letting you walk away seems to be their new scheme to make it seem like they are offering the lowest price possible.
The more you spend on a new vehicle the more money you should get off the MSRP. My friend bought an F350 and got $13,500 off the sticker price.
If possible it?s always best to have your trade in paid off before you buy something new. Our monthly on the "Texas Edition" GMC is pretty low due to all the trade in money going towards the principal.

 

[v1_0]

Re: I hate car shopping.

There are some services - that for a cost ($20, I think) will provide you a list of the actual 'wholesale' cost of the car and all of its features.

That will give you an *idea* of what the dealer "pays" for the car (on paper, at least). There are other things going on in the background - such as incentives, discounts, etc. based on the size & sales numbers of the dealer that can reduce the actual cost...

Having this cost information is a good starting point to determine negotiations.

Then, negotiate one thing at a time. Price of car. Then how it's financed (that can be negotiated too). Then your trade in - note that you won't 'get' as much for your trade in if you do it this way. However, if you mix all of these things up the dealer can make it seem like you are getting a deal from an inflated trade in value - but in reality they haven't come down as far on the cost of the car, or are going to get you with finance fees.

There's a number of classic negotiation strategies that the salespeople can use. A couple of the classic ones are to get you emotionally 'hooked' on the car. (Test drive in the 'primo' model, etc). Or have the salesperson 'need to check with the business manager' about the deal they have negotiated with you. When the sales manager comes in, they renegotiate the deal - starting from the price you set with the salesperson.

Also maintain exactly what it is that you are negotiating: the cost of just the car or the total cost of the deal. There are things like registration fees that are fine, but others like: "dealer prep", "delivery fees", "ADP", that get added in on top of the negotiated price.

One strategy is to pick a car & options, then *call* various dealers asking for their best price on the car. Or, you can use the information about the dealer's cost of the car and set a price - then ask the dealer if they can do it or not.

Be prepared to play a waiting game for a bit. Many people go in with the idea that they are "buying a car today", just like you would do for a clock radio or groceries. Salespeople understand this and use it to their benefit. However, a good salesperson keeps a list of 'possibles' to call now and again. The'll work that list as a 'B priority', and with the economy the way it is - a low comission sale is better than a no comission not sale.

-V

 

[jkust]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I think one of the other difficult things for me is that I pay with cash and won't be trading in. In other words as an example paying $20,000 versus $16,000 isn't a matter of an extra $100 per month but $4000 I actually see leaving my pocket. Kind of like how my wife pays quarterly taxes for her consuting business she owns versus having taxes taken out of your paycheck. Writing an $x0,000 dollar check quarterly really makes you appreciate and take notice how much taxes actually cost you(and that the new taj Mahal/public library by me is way over the top). If everyone physically paid their own taxes and paid actual cash for vehicles, I would bet this discussion would be a lot different. Because cash is hard to come by but credit is not, I am looking for that 3-4 year old fully loaded, low to medium miled SUV but only willing to pay 10,000 or so. My big ticket shopping generally takes longer than most but I seem to always find the deal eventually. We will see if it is possible in this market.

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: I hate car shopping.

If you are a memeber of Sam's Club, Triple A or Costco they have prenegotiated prices with certain dealerships. You go to their websites and they will direct you to the dealership. Takes the haggling out. Saleperson brings out the book, shows your vehicle's invoice price and then a pre agreed upon mark up is added for their profit. All manufacturer rebates and incintives still apply. Bought my Tundra that way. Cost me $600 over invoice. Ended up paying $22,000 for a $28,000 truck.

The last time that i bought a Vehicle was in 2005, i used the Consumer Report system and offered 1K below the "actual" invoice price, within two days the car was in my drive way. (There is the invoice cost then there is the actual invoice cost)
There is something called "Hold Backs", that is money (profit) that goes from the manufacturers to the dealerships after they sell the vehicle.

One must decide on the vehicle and package that they want, and what price they are willing to pay before going to the dealership, and don't be intimidated or try to be coy, let them know up front where you stand and that your offer is firm.
leave them your number and go to the next dealership and do the same thing, let them know that you do not have time to waste, if the salesman wants to negotiate, let him know that is what he needs to do with his sales manager, and the first one that meets your price gets the sale.
It is a lot quicker if there are two or more dealerships for the your vehicle of your choice within a twenty five mile radius.

 

[mphy98]

Re: I hate car shopping.

WOW, I am sorry to see the dealership bashing going on here. While I will agree that the big city stores may pull a lot of this garbage, I see a lot of customers from big city's that come into our small town dealership with huge chips on there shoulders as well. Having worked in the small town dealership for thirty years as sales manager, gm, and finance mgr I can tell you we treat people right or we would not have been in business for 70 years. I would recommend to anyone to go to a small town dealership, treat the sales and other persons there with respect and they will in turn treat you the same. Don't BS them with ridiculous statements that you can get at "other" places because they all use the same black book for appraisals and are seldom more than a few hundred dollars different. All ford, GM, Chrysler dealers pay the same amount for the exact same model, the rebates do vary region to region though. My advise is do your homework, check KB.com for your value of trade in. Use trade value not retail, be honest with condition to yourself. Go to Ford or Chrysler or Gm's site and you can build your own vehicle and get the retail as well as invoice price the dealer pays now. Be aware that the exact car you want may have to be ordered, or located which if located will accrue additional costs but if you need it now so be it. In closing just be reasonable and most small town dealers will be as well. I am talking new car dealers here in case you didn't guess. thank you bob

 

[tommays]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I blame the automakers My BIL is a long time GM service manager and if your moving cars they will allow a dealer with a **** poor CSI to keep right on moving units at the cost of a dealer trying to treat your right


The mega dealers that have been allow to happen live in consumer court over there BS sales adds across the brand board

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: I hate car shopping.

One thing to know is when a salesman shows you an "invoice" That IS HIS TOOL NOT YOURS. My BIL who has sold new cars for many years told me that most dealers can show you "an invoice" that says anything they want it to because you cant verify the numbers.Like I said before never let a dealer tell you or show you what the car value is,if you do its more money from your pocket and more money into theirs. I believe the game that you often have to play to buy a car is part of the reason the car makers are in trouble. People are sick of it.

 

[zoe'sdad]

Re: I hate car shopping.

The invoice price I was shown was in computer printout about 1 1/2" thick. It was refernced the vehicle by the VIN, listed all the options per package. the printout listed every vehicle on thier lot. If it was a ploy they sure did put a lot of work in to it. Bought that truck in 2005 from John Elway's dealership in Ontario CA. I was also told I could buy any vehicle from them at $6oo over cost from that point on, that it was my price. If I was still living in CA I would go back to that dealership. My brother bought an F-150 from a Ford Dealership in Houma, LA through Sam's club and had the same experience. As for the hold back, the dealership is allowed to make a profit. If not they go out of business. If you want to haggle until you get that vehicle at cost, good for you. The hold back allows the dealer ship to make some money.

 

[BF]

Re: I hate car shopping.

It's nice to see at least several of you have the same issues with car buying that I do. FWIW, I don't have anything against the dealer making a dollar... I am 100% sure that no-one ever sold me a car that they were loosing money on. I've had enough acquaintances in the car business over the years to be wary of any invoice that the dealer may provide in negotiations... incentives/paybacks from the factory to the dealer for inventory that's been sitting do happen, can be in the thousands of dollars, and I don't think would be disclosed to me.

I agree with the statement about power... As I've gotten older, I realize who has the power... the buyer with the cheque book!

A couple examples of the "gamesmanship" that goes on... I had to buy a car in a hurry (within a couple days), and had it narrowed down to 2. One was brand new, the other was the same make/model, but was fully loaded, and was used, but was current model year, 7 months old with ~8000 miles on it. They were at different dealerships. One sales guy (the one with the new car) was someone that a family member had dealt with and assured me was a straight shooter type... older very senior sales guy, but not the manager. I told him I was buying within the next 2 days, and asked him if he could talk to his manager and give me their best cash out the door price, all charges in, excluding tax on one particular car they had in stock. I told him he'd better really make it his best price, because I'd take him at his word and would not come back asking for more off... whatever price they named I would take as their bottom line. He said absolutely he would do that, and later in the day gave me a call with the number.. I said fair enough, thank's much, I'll think about it and let you know by tomorrow. I ended up buying the other car (7 month old one) despite that sales guy and manager giving me the typical song and dance. In the end, for the price I liked the car better. I called back sales guy no. 1, and told him thanks for his effort, I just wanted to let him know I'd gone with a different car, but appreciated how he conducted himself, I just liked the other car better. I was amused and surprised when this sales guy starts going off on me over the phone! "You should've called me back, we could've worked with you on the price!" bla bla bla... I chuckled and reminded him that I told him I wasn't gonna call back and ask for $100 or $200 or $300 off, b/c it was supposed to be his bottom line. I'm about 100% sure that if I had haggled on his number, he'd have told me to F. O. (which I would've considered fitting considering I said I wouldn't do that)... What made my eyes roll was b/c he was pi$$ed about loosing the sale, in his last conversation with me he decides to try and make me feel like I could've done better (big time sour grapes).

Like always, I enjoy the new (or newer) vehicle after I get it, but I don't enjoy the purchasing part.

Oh, and don't get me started about Saturn! I was real close (like minutes away) from buying a new sedan, but the nonsense being spewed by the sweater wearing sales guy made me leave. I left laughing about the "new kind" of car company. I wasn't even haggling... I politely asked him what value they'd give me for a trade in, off their "set" haggle-less pricing. They didn't work like that. Problem was I was trying to decide on which trim level I wanted to buy. Turns out my trade in was worth different amounts depending on which trim level I wanted.... OKayyyy. So "set pricing" isn't so set... I can live with that. Then I ask can you tell me what it's worth for this one? I ask. (high trim model)... He basically says, no he won't tell me, not if the next thing I'm gonna ask him is how much it'd be worth on trade for the low trim model (or something along those lines). I was expected to only consider one car. That was my exit cue. Funny thing is how if the guy had 1/2 a brain, he would have sold me a car that day! All he needed to say is even though it's set pricing, we have some stock we have to move, so we'll give you an extra $1000 or $2000 or whatever for your trade, if you buy the high/low trim level sedan... I would've said, great, sign me up! But he wouldn't even give me numbers!

I do agree also about the rural dealer thing... there is a dealer about an hour away that I try to use when possible, but with used stock you gotta go with whoever has the car you want.

I also agree with the person above... I think the reason I'm bugged by the whole car dealer thing is b/c I am really considering the big lump of money that I'm paying. It always amazed me in the haydays of leasing a few years ago how many people would go return their lease, and sign a new one... without considering how much it was really costing them in the long run. What a brilliant marketing strategy! Don't think about the long term cost, just the monthly payment amount! Funny how it was the poor value of the lease returns that finally killed GM's lease program... I thought leasing was a cash cow for them... I was surprised when it imploded.

Anyway... I do gotta decide what I want... I'm not sure what years/models of SUV's have 3rd row seating... also it'd be very nice if the 3rd row was split, so 1/2 of it could be folded up... I know newer envoys have that, but I'm not sure of the others. That's why I'll probably go look at dealers.. so I can see a few at once and decide what I want.. .then start watching the prices.

 

[jimr]

Re: I hate car shopping.

When the wife and I bought last year we went to one dealership and saw a van she liked. it had way too many miles on it for me to even consider. I asked how much for S&Gs. the guy wanted to run my credit. said WTH you cant tell me the cash out the door price with out running someones credit. see ya. went a mile down the road and bought at the dealership I bought my truck at.

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: I hate car shopping.

I am not against the dealership making a profit, i just think that eight hundred to a thousand dollars is sufficient profit per a vehicle.
What keeps a dealership in business is the after sales service.