Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

  • No way, I want a dealer to hold my hand.

    Votes: 4 5.6%
  • Maybe, after others try it and I see how it works.

    Votes: 4 5.6%
  • I would do it but my limit is 500 miles or less.

    Votes: 33 46.5%
  • Half the current cost? You bet, whats the URL ?!?!

    Votes: 30 42.3%

  • Total voters
    71

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Nope, he will not touch financing, thats on the buyer. He is adamant that financing is what has caused so many manufactures to file bankruptcy. I am certain he will provide some third party type of financing but it won't be his money involved.

Just raising a possible issue....would him possibly not having a recognized brand name have any impact on the his customers being able to obtain bank financing?
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

The other flaw that I see in the plan is the target market that is being contemplated. Manufacturers of this size of boat are plentiful already and the market is really flooded with boats of this size, most of the big manufacturers can finance the carrying costs associated with building and holding the boats until they sell, I doubt your buddy can do this, and if he plans on building them JIT he is going to run into labor problems because he probably won't have a linear pipeline of business.

This was my concern as well. Do we really need another small bowrider manufacturer? And as was mentioned previously, Bayliner, Stingray, etc have the affordable bowrider market pretty well covered. I think your friend's plan could work but he needs an innovative design to start with.

However, if he made an aluminum bowrider that isn't geared mostly to fishing (like a 70's or 80's Starcraft SuperSport) I'd buy it!
 

haulnazz15

Captain
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
3,720
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

A few thoughts on this...

The Four Winns name started in 75. They built upon the solid reputation that Saf-T-Mate had built since the early 60s.

Other companies you didn't mention that have been around a long time (30 -40 years or more) would be Glastron, Larson, Starcraft, Bayliner, Mastercraft, Nautique (Correct Craft), Century, Whaler, Grady White, Donzi, Cobia, Regal, Hurricane, Rinker...I could keep going.

The point is that almost all of the primary (staple) boat brands have been around a long, long time....Names are important.

Granted, many of these companies have been bought, sold, re-sold changed format and are hardly the same company they started off as.

However, reputation matters. Brands like Tahoe that emerged out of "nothing" are usually just an extension of existing companies (Tracker marine in this case). They had a reputation to fall back on.

My point wasn't that there aren't a lot of boat manufacturers still in business, my point was that there have been 3X's that many manufacturers of boats that sold plenty of units but fell due to hard economic times and poor financing decisions. My Mark Twain is an example: Extremely solid/well-built boat, they had lots of configurations, great interior quality, distinct hull shape, etc. They died in the 90's along with many other boat makers like Webbcraft, Mariah, Newman, Trojan, VIP, etc.

The other item you mentioned was Tracker Marine, which in the bass boat world makes the Nitro equivalent to a bayliner. I don't know why they say so, but they do. I just think the big picture is that his hull/cap design would have to set it apart from the rest, not just using the same molds as some other boat. I can spot a 70's Glastron from across the lake, same with a Mark Twain or Cobalt. I don't see anything distinctive between many of the newer boat makers aside from color schemes.

I simply think that brand name is much less important in the market he is shooting for, the low-to-mid priced runabout. Many first time boaters and people looking to upgrade from their first or smaller boat don't know one brand from another. They can't tell you about a Cobalt's composite transom and kevlar-laced keel/hull and full composite stringers. They don't know that they'll pay twice as much for a Cobalt, but that cobalt will never rot out like the cheaper manufacturer. Therefore, all they see is price and shiny bits of chrome.

The only way for enough people to see this guy's boats is for him to make up several dozen to make a small inventory and try and get them into a limited dealer network or sell them to friends to get the name out there so that people will even know it exists.
 

RotaryRacer

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
1,361
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I am going to try to concisly restate some points I and others have made.


Interesting, do you think it would make a big differnece if he bought the "name" along with the molds and parts?

In my opinion YES. Reputation/name recognition is important. See follow up below.


The design (hull and cap) has been done and proven with several years of use. Marketing and Sales are the two things he wants to minimise or even eliminate and is his belief they are mill stone around the necks of other manufactures.

As they say, "the only true constant is change".

You can build the best product in any given industry and never sell one. Minimizing marketing and sales is fine but you can't do away with them alll together.


Sounds like he wants his cake and to eat it too. He does not want to mess around with marketing, wants to pre-buy the molds so no R&D, and does not want to deal with shipping, nor financing.

I think as a new venture picking up where someone else left off is a very good way to be successful. Just b/c he is buying the molds for the current boats doesn't mean there won't ever be a new design.

Honestly, there isn't much differentation in hull design from manufacture to manufacture. Many of the "quailty" boats you mention have used the same hull design for years. As to costs, I can't say but his having been in the business for 15 years as a design engineer would indicate he has a pretty good idea what the costs are.

(An FYI: The molds he is considering have a good following if I could mention the name. Yeah, you would recognise it.)


Are we talking hull design or hull design....are we talking the actual running surface or the aesthetics of how the hull and cap are joined or how the swim platform is integrated etc.

If we are talking the running surface you are right. There is little difference from one boat to the next many years back.

As far as aesthetics are concerned...that is what sells boats. If you integrated the swim platform better and have a more fluild design it will be more appealing and sell better than a design with the exact same running surface that doesn't look as good.

As to hull R&D, I don't think most boaters grasp how long current hulls have been around. Especially in the 18' to 21' range of runabouts. (A couple of the molds are less than two years old.)

See my point directly above. I think there have been new/modified molds but they may have only addressed aesthetic issues not running surface issues.

I think you may be understating it quite a bit actually.

My point wasn't that there aren't a lot of boat manufacturers still in business, my point was that there have been 3X's that many manufacturers of boats that sold plenty of units but fell due to hard economic times and poor financing decisions. My Mark Twain is an example: Extremely solid/well-built boat, they had lots of configurations, great interior quality, distinct hull shape, etc. They died in the 90's along with many other boat makers like Webbcraft, Mariah, Newman, Trojan, VIP, etc.

You are right that a lot of boat builders have died out along the way.

My point wasn't so much to say you were wrong in that. My point is that the names that are still around and are typical mainstream boats have been around a long time in many many cases.

There are newer companies that make great products and we all hope that they can survive for the next 30-40 years or more also.

I was actually trying to come up with a list of companies that were mainstream boats in the 60s and 70s that didn't make it. That list was quite a bit shorter than the ones that did make it.


I just think the big picture is that his hull/cap design would have to set it apart from the rest, not just using the same molds as some other boat. I can spot a 70's Glastron from across the lake, same with a Mark Twain or Cobalt. I don't see anything distinctive between many of the newer boat makers aside from color schemes.

I agree. The product needs to stand on its own. However, having a recognizable name on the side usually goes along way to convincing a buyer that it is a good solid product and company.


The only way for enough people to see this guy's boats is for him to make up several dozen to make a small inventory and try and get them into a limited dealer network or sell them to friends to get the name out there so that people will even know it exists.

If you have a recognizable name there is less need to get the name out there...
 

Steve Mahler

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
361
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

To answer the question - no, I would not buy an unknown new boat - and I dont think you would be able to get bank financing for it as well. Bottom line it is a very small percentage of the (small and shrinking) boat buying public that would be willing to make this risky investment.
 

jaxnjil

Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
1,368
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

NOT EVEN; i dont see this as any different from buying from e-bay and thats not a risk i'm willing to take
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Sorry, but Brunswick (Bayliners parent company) is not in Chapter 11. In fact they just entered into a joint asset-based loan facility with GE commercial.

I guess the recognize the need to help provide financing to potential boat buyers.

Unlike GM and Chrysler, they have have been nimble, cutting production and managing the economic downturn.

They might permanently close down some of their brands, but they are planning on selling boats and merc engines for the long haul.

I think they know a little about this business.
 

superpop

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
869
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

OK, so I will give you the answer you really want, word will spread like wildfire that there is a new revolutionary way to buy a high quality boat at a rock bottom price and you just go to a website and order up what you want and then go take it for a spin and then if you like it take it home. Lifetime hull warranties and even one or two year warranties will be a thing of the past since nothing will ever break on these new boats. And the factory will hum like a swiss watch with consistent orders from excited customers. No need for dealers or marketing because of the buzz on the net. Hell, I would go find investors and set up shop here in Seattle, where more than a few boats are bought and sold, if that was the case. It is not though, it is a huge gamble, plain and simple. It is compounded by the fact that the economy sucks right now for luxury items like a new boat, even at a great price, and most do not see it changing dramatically for several years.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I think the fundamental problem is that you are trying to get an answer to something that does not exist as you envision it. Further, you have conducted a poll that is so limited, that it couldn't possibly give you a usable information. I didn't even answer it and that is why.

The question is not whether people will buy a heavily discounted boat that is some distance away, it is whether they will travel to buy the boat your friend intends on producing. Since your friend has no track record as an individual, the most logical answer is no, people will not travel to buy his boats. Why should they? They don't know him and he will have an untested product. Having read your replies, I know that you will say that your friend will build a superior product with rigid quality control. That sounds nice, but in the eyes of the market place, nothing will really be known about his boats, because no one has put them, or any other boat that he is solely responsible for producing, through years of use.

Since you keep alluding to an assumption that your friend's boats will be well received because they will make use of molds from a currently well known manufacturer, I think that issue need to be addressed too. The only thing that use of someone else's molds tell a consumer, is what the boats will look like. It doesn't mean a thing as to quality.

As someone else also very astutely pointed out, people usually don't buy $25,000 boats without some financing. When that somebody walks into his banker and wants a substantial amount of money to go buy a boat, the first thing the banker is going to do is reach for a valuation guide, because he/she is going to want to know resale values, in case the loan goes bad. In the case of your friend's boats, this will not be possible. The end result will be that the bank customer better have rock solid credit and/or something to put up as collateral.

Others also mentioned reputation. You have said that your friend has been an engineer for a well known boat brand for 15 years. That will buy him a few points with his financiers, but it won't do much, if anything, for him in the retail marketplace. In all likelyhood, no one has ever heard of your friend, outside of a few folks in the business.

As for business plan, yes its important. Its important because sharp buyers will want to know whether or not your friend is likely to be around for long. They aren't going to want to sit down with the actual document and pick apart each component of it, but they will want to have a general sense of whether he has a realistic understanding of what it takes to run a company. From what I have heard thus far, I don't think he does.

In my area, there are many "boutique" boat builders. They build very specialized boats and they do pretty well. In most cases, the reason why is because they are very well known within a very small market. They are known as individuals and they are known as boatbuilders. In some cases, they are second or third generation boatbuilders. In real estate, it is said that location is everything. In my opinion, in boatbuilding, reputation is everything and at the level you are talking about, your friend has no reputation. No offense meant, but he's just a guy who designs boats.

All of this said, I would love to see your friend succeed. I like his can do attitude and I like his willingness to stick his neck out. On that level, he has good qualities for such a venture. This is also a time in our overall economic picture, that seeing someone try to be a part of the solution, is a nice thing.

What I suggest, is that your friend start on a limited scale. I think it would be better to buy three engines, rather than $300,000 worth of them, and build a few boats for sale locally. If things go well, he can steadily increase his output and sales territory.

He also needs to have a marketing plan. I think he can be the salesman, at least in the beginning, but he needs to have a real sense of his marketplace and how to get in front of potential buyers. Failure to do that, will result in you having a friend with three boats to do his own fishing in.

If your buddy remains stubbornly focused on trying to do something on a grand scale, I suggest that he partner with someone who does have a nationally known name as a successful builder and business owner. The addition of a couple of other nationally known department heads, would be a good thing too. Having a bunch of investors is nice, but if no one knows any of them, they are just guys with money, not guys who can get an unheard of boat marketed.

Once again, you have to ask the right questions, not just any questions. You also have to be willing to accept broad based answers, because they get to the heart of whether people would do what you are hoping they will do, which is to travel a long way to buy a particular boat.
 

rrhodes

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
636
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Working with shops to perform repair work would make a huge difference in my mind. I don't need a salesman when I have a problem but having somewhere local to run to get something fixed and back on the water is important.

Then again as Bentley owners have found out, with well known companies going out of business many people are stuck without a warranty anyway. Motor and Drive can be taken to any authorized service center, electronics can be sent back to the factory. Most people don't run into Hull issues until the warranty has expired anyway....

That being said, if the price was right and I liked the design I would make the trip to buy one. For that matter if I save $10k I could pay a boat mover to pick it up for me for $1k
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I already save $10K by buying slightly used. The only reason I could see to buy new is to customize the boat or a knock out deal on price and financing.

The Dell analogy does not work for me. You throw your dell away after 4 years as a worthless boat anchor. They are disposable.

I personally see Minnesota as a con (no offense intended to you northerners). That is the last place I ever want to go boating, let alone drive to to test out and purchase a boat. Us southern folk assume all the lakes are frozen over all but 3 months a year. I would rather drive somewhere warm and central. Outside of Bransom, MO or somewhere in Arkansas or Texas come to mind to me.

That all being said, I hope he succeeds. I believe free market competition is always good for any industry.
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

PS: Am I going to get some guy in India when I call with a question about my boat like I do when I call Dell? :eek:
 

Thad

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
1,028
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

[ (Why 500 miles? Because people can drive it in a day or make a round trip over a weekend.)

:DRoad Trip:D
 

dbkerley

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
443
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

If your buddy is going to sell @ 50% off list with a warranty; then he should simply sell to existing dealers at that price and let them have the profits along with the shipping.
 

dbkerley

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
443
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I don't mind the lack of dealer support or a warranty. My latest boat has been test run for over 30 years and if it had a manufacturing defect it probably would have surfaced by now. I don't think he can beat out the pricing discount we get by buying used unless he is offering something truly innovative with good support.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I don't think the issue of selling in Minnesota only is a problem at all. In fact, I think it makes alot of sense. Keeping the initial effort to a 500 mile sales radius allows for a focused marketing plan and it will make "selling" the principals of the company alot easier. I also agree that Minnesota has a large boating market.

I do think you are still missing an important point, however. The analogy in regard to Dell is not even close in terms of its relationship to what your friend is proposing, and neither are your figures.

Michael Dell started selling computers out of his dorm room, one at a time. His first real effort at a mass produced PC was the "Turbo PC," in 1985. He sold it for about $800 at a time the price point for PCs in general seemed to be about $2,000, not $5,000 to $6,000. In fact, I can't think of any time in the history of a basic PC, when an "average" PC would have cost $5,000 to $6,000. At the time, there were tons of people selling "knockoff PCs" via local advertising and discount electronic stores. The individual store owners were getting the units direct from Taiwan, etc. Some of them were even buying the parts and assembling the units at the stores. I know these things, because I bought my first PC at that time.

Dell, was not marketing via the internet then, because essentially no one was marketing via the internet at that time. In fact, widespread use of the net for any purpose, did not begin until later on. What Dell did was to advertise in magazines, for direct sales and direct shipping. This really wasn't all that different than direct sales via a store that existed anyway, but happened to be selling other types of electronics.

What made the Dell take off was the price, but the concept is not the same as what you have been talking about. All of the generic PC makers were buying their components from the same places and anyone who was paying any attention at all, knew that. So, you could buy "this" PC for $2,000, or you could buy "that" PC for $800, knowing that essentially the same parts were in each. That made the decision pretty easy - there wasn't alot of risk in terms of the basic machine.

Gambling $800 is also vastly different than gambling $25,000 to $30,000 on something that could easily be radically different in quality. Once again, most people don't just plunk down that kind of money out of "spare cash," they go to banks and that changes things in a big way.

Another area of caution that I see, is that I think you started this thread with a conclusion that had already been arrived at. It also sounds like you have more than a casual interest in this venture. You've been given some pretty good advice, and you have pretty well argued against all of it. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I would say that you need to worry less about buzz words like "paradigm shift" and more about a shift in your own thinking - going into something without a willingness to accept info, whether you agree with it or not, is a sure prescription for failure.

The idea isn't a bad one. What I think needs to go along with it, is a solid and broad based business plan that includes all aspects of the pre startup issues and plans, the startup items and all of the usual items like marketing, advertising, finance, budgeting/cash flow, production, sales, yada, yada, yada. As long as the plan reflects the reality of the current economic environment, as well as your local market envinronment, and you have adequate working capital, the venture just might be do-able.

Proceed with caution, proceed with planning, proceed with realism and proceed with determination. After all of that, who knows, you just might be shipping some boats to "looooooooooziana" :D in a few years time.
 

lrdchaos

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
265
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

I drove 300 miles to save 14k on my new tahoe.
 

sickwilly

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
1,089
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Perception is important -- as in "Your getting a Dell, Dude!"

Some people see used as a "hand me down".

Others, like me, see buying new as paying a "stupid tax" for the privilege of driving the boat off the lot.

I inherited no one's problems with my 2 year old boat with 14 hours on it. I know of others with a brand new boat that inherited many problems and defects that needed to be fixed. Buying new is no guarantee of a problem-free boat, as buying used in no guarantee of having problems.

Luckily, we are all different, have different perceptions, and this allows many viable options.

If his boats rock and are a huge success, I will not only save 50% off the typical price, but save another 20% off that amount by buying it from the guy that bought it on a whim and found out he is not a boater, with about 15 hours on it, still pretty much brand new! Unfortunately, I will not get to drive to Minnesota doing it my way, so I still will not have seen the mall of America!
 

dbkerley

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
443
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

Thank goodness someone seen it differently, bought a new boat and you were able to buy it used. Hey wait a second, doesn't that mean every used boat in existance was first sold as a new boat? :D :D :D

That was my point. The difference between new and used isn't always condition or quality. Often the only difference is price and support. If you can do without the support you will get from the dealer, you will never have a good reason to buy new. (unless you see bragging rights as a reason) If your guy isn't bringing some form of available support; I can't find a reason to buy new at any price. (unless of course it is less than used)
 

Bowser4x4

Seaman
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
58
Re: Whould YOU travel for a great deal on a new boat?

While it sounds like a good idea, I don't think it will fly for the main reason that the "average" boat buyer does want his hand held. When he [or she..:).] buys a boat, it is usually more spur of the moment/boat show/neighbor just bought one/kids want to fish-ski type thing rather than a deliberate process. I know that most of us on here are the exact opposite {took me over a year to find either of the boats I have now}, but when this person decides to buy a boat, he wants it right now, with all of the stuff to take it to the lake and have little Johnny out fishing or Little Jenny out tubing.

Because this is a spur of the moment thing, they NEED to have everything done for them {license,financing,accessories, trailer hitch, etc} and all they have to do is sign on the line, and hop in the boat. Don't believe this??? How many people on this forum have bought their boat with almost no hours on a 3-4 year old boat. My Sea Ray is an 05 that I bought over the winter with less than 90 hours on it....and it was from Florida. If he was looking at a more upscale boat class, one in which most of the buyers do take the time to study, review, read boat forums and go on test rides, then I think he would have a good chance at it.

Having worked in the automotive financial field years ago, I can say that "a lot" of people who bought a new car was not serious about buying, was just looking and got caught up in the emotion of a new car and bought it. Same thing would apply to boats I think: Guy is driving by a marina and stops by to take a look. Next thing you know, he is on the way home with the boat..

I wish him all the luck, but in the target market he is going into, I think it does take both marketing as well as boat on hand, not built to order....

Woof
Bowser
 
Top