Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

[v1_0]

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090730/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_hacker_conference_infected_pc

Ok, in summary: since 2005 it looks like the BIOS manufacturers (Pheonix: 60% market share in laptops, was named) have put a 'rootkit' in the bios of laptops, in order for a the company, Absolute, to be able to track stolen laptops. The phrase "lojack for laptops" is going around...

Anyway, turns out the adage "if people make it, people can break it" is true here too: it is possible for the rootkit to be subverted by someone if they have access to your laptop (say via a virus, or malware).

Now the really big point is that this code 'lives' in your BIOS - which means that you could wipe, and totally reformat, your hard-drive - and not touch it. It would reinstall itself when your install windows... It's designed to be very resilient..

Up to this point, there was some safety "security through obscurity" because the existence of the rootkit wasn't well known. Obviously, this is changing...

 

[NoKlu]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Is it really that big of a deal? They can track you with your ip address and tell you exactly what house you are in these days. If this can help locate stolen property like lojack, whats the problem? Every cell phone these days can be tracked to it's location as well. Every vehicle with onstar or the equivalent can be located with the touch of a button. It's way too late to be crying about big brother as he's been here for years and just keeps growing every year.

 

[Splat]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Is it really that big of a deal? They can track you with your ip address and tell you exactly what house you are in these days. If this can help locate stolen property like lojack, whats the problem? Every cell phone these days can be tracked to it's location as well. Every vehicle with onstar or the equivalent can be located with the touch of a button. It's way too late to be crying about big brother as he's been here for years and just keeps growing every year.

(read this slowly and calmly, that's how I wrote it.)
I';m sorry, but this goes with the same old additge, a right you don't use/protect is a right you loose. I believe that things are getting out of control. The government is becoming more and more intrusive, and more and more of a nanny state, all this under the guise of it's for the common good, or it's for the children.

I'm a believer that life isn't fair. things happen to people and you can't save them all. I don't believe it's being mean, i believe it's being realistic, and I believe that we are not the same nation, of the same people we once were, were softer now.

I know this thread is gonna get locked eventually, but lets try to have a clean convo for a bit.

BIll

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

The MAC address is also a unique HW based identifier for the computer, and has been around on every NIC since the 1980s. It has always been able to identify a particular, unique computer.
The WWW has only been around since around 1993, and by the end of 1993, there were only 623 websites. By the end of '94 there were more than 10,000.
My point being, that what is being claimed as a "right", is really a recent innovation that is still a "privilege".

 

[v1_0]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Is it really that big of a deal? They can track you with your ip address and tell you exactly what house you are in these days. If this can help locate stolen property like lojack, whats the problem? Every cell phone these days can be tracked to it's location as well. Every vehicle with onstar or the equivalent can be located with the touch of a button. It's way too late to be crying about big brother as he's been here for years and just keeps growing every year.

Knowing *where* your computer is - that is one thing. Being able to read - or change - its contents is another.

Lojack, your cell phone, your IP address, and even a GPS device stuck to the bottom of your car - merely tell where that particular item is. I have no issue with that as the information can be surmised or gathered in other ways.

A phone tap, or IP tap in the case of computers - these are more intrusive, as they 'read' information that the device is transmitting. It's customary to get a court ordered warrent for this sort of activity...

The rootkit is one level deeper than that - it resides ON YOUR LAPTOP and can be used to get information off your laptop, even if you do not transmit it. MORE: it can be used to take control of your computer. This goes beyond what the phone/IP tap does... More along the lines of putting 'bugs' into your bedroom and recording what you are saying...

So yes, there is a big deal here as it isn't just "where the computer is" information..

-V

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

I understand what you're saying, but you lost me when it jumped from "badly designed software" to "Gov't conspiracy"

 

[NoKlu]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

As I understand that article this is a subscription service. If your company is supplying laptops to it's employee's they can have it installed to protect their property. You can't remove it by wiping the hard drive. It is not a program that every laptop on the store shelves will have installed on the drive. Kaspersky say's it will be a problem for them as they design software to remove rootkits. If this one is embedded in the bios they will have a hard time working around it and not leave the entire system vulnerable. Will it be exploited? of course it will but that will keep the designers busy and employed. Unless I am missing something I don't see the boogie man here.

 

[dolluper]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Hummm.....how do you think dell and other comp's can fix your computer over the phone with the id number.....old news buddy....you have been watched since day one on any computer ....complain to your member of government in your area or it will keep on happening .....NO laws hardly pertaining to computers

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Hummm.....how do you think dell and other comp's can fix your computer over the phone with the id number.....old news buddy....you have been watched since day one on any computer ....complain to your member of government in your area or it will keep on happening .....NO laws hardly pertaining to computers

Yep, and there's a hidden TV camera in your DVD player watching every move you make.

 

[Fl_Richard]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

There's no hidden camera in your DVD player... But there is one in the lid of your modern laptop. in fact... I think big brother's watching me thru it now....

Big brother... Here's your sign

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

I think some people are completely missing the point of this. It has nothing to do with the Government, Dell, HP, Sony, etc, etc, etc being able to control you or track you.

The article is about the black hat hacker that is able to modify this 'security' software that resides in the BIOS for his own malicious deeds. Because it resides in the BIOS, when they infect you the first time, no amount of hard drive formatting is going to make it go away. After a re-format and re-install, the now malicious BIOS would contact a malicious web site and re-download whatever it was the hack put on in the first place, re-infecting the computer and making your data vulnerable. This would happen over and over and over again no matter how many times a scanner caught it.

The anit-spyware and anti-virus companies should have an interesting time coming up with a solution to this one. A hacker doesn't care if he pooches the BIOS (making your computer unuseable), but the legit companies have to make sure they don't pooch it because of their fix.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

I understand what you're saying, but you lost me when it jumped from "badly designed software" to "Gov't conspiracy"

I hadn't mentioned a government conspiracy, just an ALIEN conspiracy... well, I mentioned neither in fact. What I am calling attention to is a tool that can be used for any number of government or non-government groups to gain access on your laptop.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

It is not a program that every laptop on the store shelves will have installed on the drive.

You are correct, but not quite in the way you think you are: this is NOT installed on the harddrive, but in the BIOS. And, it looks to be in the range of about 60% of laptops out there have this. Based on the article, of course - there may be something they don't know about the distribution of it, etc.

Unless I am missing something I don't see the boogie man here.

If you read the article, the boogie man they are talking about is a hacker that can come around and subvert the rootkit to contact the website of their choice - and then execute the commands of their choice from that point forward. Most likely their choice would include being able to get your accounts/passwords, and anything else they could get a value from.

I have a further concern: somewhere out there (the company "Absolute") someone has a 'spare set of keys' to my laptop. I have no idea on how they manage these, and I wouldn't care for someone to take my laptop for a testdrive...

 

[v1_0]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Hummm.....how do you think dell and other comp's can fix your computer over the phone with the id number.....old news buddy....you have been watched since day one on any computer ....complain to your member of government in your area or it will keep on happening .....NO laws hardly pertaining to computers

There are windows services that allow Dell (or whomever) to do this. They are clearly documented, and sometimes labeled so you can identify them: "Remote Desktop Help Session Manager", "Remote Registry", etc.

I can, and do, disable them from within windows. Once disabled, they are not accessable from outside my computer.

This is a vast difference from having something - undocumented, unpublished - being run on your computer without you knowing about it, with the additional 'feature' of being unremovable (and very hard to disable).

 

[NoKlu]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

Check this link out.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs12ccbOiE

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

So is there any rootkit revealer out there that can detect it presence? So if you know it exists in your bios, couldn't you just take out the CMOS battery, reload with clean bios and back to business as usual?

 

[v1_0]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

So is there any rootkit revealer out there that can detect it presence? So if you know it exists in your bios, couldn't you just take out the CMOS battery, reload with clean bios and back to business as usual?

I routinely use a rootkit revealer on my PCs, and now and again I run 'free to try' ones - but none have found or mentioned this. I'm assuming its because the rootkit, and virus scanners, all look at only the hard drive and volitile memory (RAM).

Reloading a 'clean' bios would take it back to the original condition - which includes an original copy of the rootkit. (It's put in there by the BIOS manufacturer, after all...) So, that might take care of any hijacks, but it doesn't take care of the whole (in my opinion) problem.

 

[NoKlu]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

After further digging it seems if you pay them you can have it removed but they wont do it unless you are a subscriber.

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

After further digging it seems if you pay them you can have it removed but they wont do it unless you are a subscriber.

I'm guessing, but subscriber or not, if tested in court, I'd bet they would loose.

Removing the battery in the case of a laptop might not be that easy, nor do any good - system board battery that is, not the regular laptop battery. Bios programs are usually stored in EEPROMs which, if I remember correctly, don't need battery power to retain their info.

 

[pooprprospector]

Re: Break out the tinfoil for you laptops!!!

hmmm..... wow this is very interesting. i had no idea that people were on to me. ok ok i'll stop watching you threw your embedded laptop camera