Ethanol

[airdvr1227]

OK...I did search but the threads are so numerous that I figured this would be better. Filled up with marine gas at the state park marina yesterday. $3.70/gal. Not even a full tank...I had 1/4 when I started. $109.00 later got me thinking.

From what I've read ethanol will seperate after a given period of time. It's hard on the fuel delivery system. Some places are pumping fuel with more than 10% ethanol But, if it was available without putting my rig on the trailer I could have gotten the same 30 gallons of E10 for around $75.00.

Is there an additive that absolutely negates the problem when I pump E10?

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Ethanol

This stuff is supposed to greatly help http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx#marine_formula

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol

The short answer to your question is no. Once you introduce enough water into the system there isn?t a product in the world that will bring it back.

The best preventative is a good fuel management plan.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

 

[IVAZ]

Re: Ethanol

Do you use your boat often? If you do, you don?t need any additives. Even if it sits a month or two it should be ok. The ethanol will only cause problems if it sits a very long time. In the Houston area we have had ethanol gas for many years already. I have no issues with any of my equipment due to ethanol. My dirt bike even sits 3-4 months without being turned on and no issues when I want to start it. I also have a 1967 Chevelle that my dad owned for about 24 years before he gave it to me 12 years ago. It?s still on the original fuel lines. I think we will be ok unless they go to the 15% stuff.
These threads always come up. The result is the same, some swear ethanol is evil, others have used it for years with no issues. Keep up with filter changes and run the boat regularly and it will be fine.

 

[Polar_Bus]

Re: Ethanol

I've got a LOT of engines I need to protect from the ill effects of extended dormant storage with E10 fuel. This product hands down is the best preventitive :

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

I've been using Startron for over a year and not had any issues period !

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol

I've got a LOT of engines I need to protect from the ill effects of extended dormant storage with E10 fuel. This product hands down is the best preventitive :

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

I've been using Startron for over a year and not had any issues period !

I'm not convinced it prevents anything except your bank balance from rising.

I've used Startron for the last 12 months. Been hit with water in my fuel supply twice in the last 6 months.

 

[blairjbyrd]

Re: Ethanol

I havent had any problems in my boat with it. I have heard you cannot use it in two cycle engines.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol

Can't use WHAT in two cycle engines? Additives or E10. If your answer is E10 that is utter nonesense. We in the upper midwest have been using ethanold blended fuel (E10) for well over a decade with no issues except on the very old engines that did not have ethanol tolerant rubber and plastic fuel system parts. If anyone is having enough water intrusion over very short periods of time it is time to buy fuel elsewhere, install a water separating fuel filter, or check your boat for a related issue. Our cars, boats, mowers, chain saws, log splitters, and anything with an engine sit in 30 below zero to 100% humidity for periods of six months with no problem. Treat the fuel prior to storage and park it. If you do have water issues, there is a pretty good chance it is not E10 related but rather supplier related.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol

If you do have water issues, there is a pretty good chance it is not E10 related but rather supplier related.

That is exactly what happened to me. I got water in my tank from a supplier. I could have used E-10 additives by the gallons and it would not have made one bit of difference.

 

[JB]

Re: Ethanol

In case you haven't noticed, any statement that starts out "I was told. . . " or "I have heard. . ." is very likely a myth that has no basis in truth.

Cars, trucks, I/Os and outboards have been successfully using E10 for 20 years and more. Why do these ethanol blaming myths persist??

 

[jmarty10]

Re: Ethanol

Great thread and a topic Ive been wondering about for some time. Good comments silvertip. I've read the mercury marine website on ethanol and they have said engines are built to handle up to 10% ethanol but if we go to 15% there is going to be issues. anyways with the horrible weather in chicago the past 3 weeks its good to know boats can sit around for a short time with ethanol in them and be ok.

 

[airdvr1227]

Re: Ethanol

Cars, trucks, I/Os and outboards have been successfully using E10 for 20 years and more. Why do these ethanol blaming myths persist??

Not so sure it's a myth...

The National Marine Manufacturers Association, the boating industry trade group, and BoatU.S., the nation's largest organization of recreational boaters, argue that the EPA should deny the E15 waiver request until independent and comprehensive scientific testing is completed on a full range of marine engines and other products.
http://www.soundingsonline.com/component/content/article/234721

 

[JaSla74]

Re: Ethanol

There are two local stations near me that only sell pure gasoline & I tend to gas my boat up there. I do notice an efficiency increase when I use pure gasoline, but at the increased price it's a wash. As long as you're not going to let E10 sit for over a year you should be okay, but I'd use a fuel stabilizer regardless.

 

[mike-the-cobra]

Re: Ethanol

Got my boat back from the shop yesterday, they drained 2 gallons of water from my gas tank.

Relating to ethanol? unknown..........

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol

Not so sure it's a myth...

The National Marine Manufacturers Association, the boating industry trade group, and BoatU.S., the nation's largest organization of recreational boaters, argue that the EPA should deny the E15 waiver request until independent and comprehensive scientific testing is completed on a full range of marine engines and other products.
http://www.soundingsonline.com/component/content/article/234721

What is happening to people is not a myth. But the fact is that its effects are preventable with good fuel management practices.

Ethanol is a very good fuel system cleaner. It cleans the years of neglect, i.e. gum and varnish, from one?s fuel systems very effectively. Those that have always taken fuel management seriously will have minimal problems. Those that have never bothered to do anything other than put gas in the tank are going to have problems.

I find it ironic that for years people have spent good money putting alcohol based ?fuel system cleaners? in their fuel tanks and now complain when they get the same for free.

 

[mike-the-cobra]

Re: Ethanol

Article in todays Detroit Free press. Shows how the Ethanol Industry is becoming a powerful lobbyist.....

"Ethanol fight bubbling up
By SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS AUTOMOTIVE EDITOR


Complaints from the ethanol industry keep getting louder.



Earlier this month, Free Press Washington correspondent Justin Hyde wrote about the brewing trouble.

Struggling ethanol makers want federal regulators to allow more ethanol to be mixed into regular gasoline. The current limit is 10% and they?re hoping for 15%.

Big ethanol also backed bills to let the government force automakers to build more vehicles capable of running on E85, a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

Automakers oppose that measure, and also say more studies are needed about the impact that adding more ethanol to regular gasoline might have on existing vehicles.

But on Wednesday, ethanol makers scored a point for getting their side heard in the Wall Street Journal. In a front-page story, the journal said, ?Turmoil in Biofuels Threatens Green Energy Revolution.?

Ethanol is the largest biofuel sector, and the article went on to explain how the ethanol industry would suffer if the government didn?t ramp up its support in the face of volatile demand and prices.

The article did have some words of cautions about biofuels.

?Not all biofuels may be worth the investment,? it said, ?because they divert land from food crops, are expensive to produce and may be eclipsed by the electric car. One fact cited against biofuels: If the entire U.S. supply of vegetable oils and animal fats were diverted to make biodiesel, production still would amount to at most 7% of U.S. diesel demand.?

But there was nary a word from Detroit?s automakers, who estimate the cost for the flex-fuel mandate at about $140 per vehicle.

You can bet they want their side heard, though. So expect this battle to keep heating up in the months ahead."

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol

Ethanol has powered boats and cars in South America (Brazil) for example for some time with no complaints. Ethanol from sugar cane however is easier to produce than ethanol from corn as we do it up here. Cars have a fairly significant drop in MPG when running on E85 (I have one) and as long as the cost difference between E85 and E10 or regular grade (87 octane) is 40 cents or more I will use E85 for the cost benefit. But less than that differential the only reason you would use it would be to "save the planet". Since corn is being diverted to the ethanol producers, everything from cereal to dog food went up in price. So when gas prices are in the low to mid $2 buck range as it is now, ethanol producers can't compete. Last summer when gas prices were hovering in the $3.50/$4.00 range I used E85 exclusively. The rub with E85 is that in some states it is also much costlier than regular gas so there is no incentive to use it. It does no good to produce more E85 capable cars if there is no benefit for the owner. The long and short of this is that people are making way too much of an issue out of ethanol -- especially in boats.

 

[Polar_Bus]

Re: Ethanol

The negitive effects of E10 in 4 stroke applications is more minimal, and far less the potential for major engine breakdowns, however E10 fuel in a 2 stroke application can easily cause a catastrophic engine failure in the blink of an eye..

I had a leaf blower engine sieze about a year ago, and upon dissasembly the piston was melted all around the exhaust skirt. Simply put, a major lean-out. The carb, I observed a greenish/ yellowish thick residue partially clogging the main jet. I also observed excessive water based corrosion. All due mainly to E10 contamination, and NOT TREATING THE FUEL..

Heres some other similar opinions to mine:

http://www.atwoodlakeboats.com/news...-10-in-with-recreational-blend-gasoline-.html


http://www.fuel-testers.com/about_ethanol_fuel.html


This is not directly related to marine, but still however very good E10 2 stroke info:

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=389156

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Ethanol

In addition to the above:
Keep your tank full to reduce air in it, from which moisture will be drawn.
Keep your tank out of direct sunlight to avoid condensation.

One reason I believe that boat motors have a harder time with ethanol is the high moisture conditions inherent in boating--your chain saw and lawn mower are going to be in a lot dryer environment.

By the same token, boats have more opportunity to introduce water into the fuel system. A damaged (corroded and chipped) vent opening did mine in. So some of the "water in fuel" issues might not be ethanol's fault, but it might also be the combination of factors that gets you.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol

Again -- yard tools with engines need fuel stabilizer just like marine engines. And 4-strokes have more of an issue with the effects of water than two strokes. Vapor separators, fuel pumps and injectors all dislike water which is why nearly every 4-stroke powered boat should (and normally does) get installed with a water separating fuel filter these days. Good fuel management is essential for any engine. It is just that may unscrupulous shops these days are quick to jump on E10 as the culprit for an engine failure -- often before they have spent 10 minutes of diagnostic time on the issue.