I think I'm getting scared....

[Mike87Monte]

After reading a ton of threads on here about the 460 King Cobra, I'm starting to get worried about my Liberator. I just bought a 88' Liberator with the King Cobra 460, and to kick I absolutely hate Ford! I knew the King Cobra was a new heavier drive than the Cobra and the reason they didn't sell so good and why their so "rare" is because the lack of confidence in the heavier built units and people didn't really want to risk it. My dad even said to try to find something with a Merc in it, but nope, I didn't listen!

I keep hearing about the nightmares of WHEN the manifolds and coupling go, that it's going to be very expensive if not impossible to replace. Are the manifolds something that can be custom made? I guess I didn't do my complete homework here.

The boat originally came with the Chevy 350, but the dumbass owner before the owner I bought it from didn't winterize it right and well you guys know the rest once water expands in the block....so he put in the 460. Almost wish I didn't buy it now that I hear all these bad things about it....The motor only has around 300hrs on it if I remember correctly, so I should have some time before EDIT: inappropriate content removed - Ezmobee

Mike

 

[Bondo]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

but nope, I didn't listen!

Ayuh,...you heard right,...
Probably otta just Sell it in the Spring,... Before it Bites you...
Custom exhaust would only cost you about Twice what the boat might be worth...

 

[mkast]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

but the dumbass owner

Maybe the boat is jinx!

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

maybe I can just not beat on it that bad? HAHAHA

Whats funny is that I say this now, but when I hear the exhaust and get in the water it's going to be the complete opposite.

In the morning when the lake is like a mirror, you know I'm gunna take it out and see how fast it goes! Then I'm gunna have some of my buddies hop on my 07' Kawasaki 250 supercharged jet ski and my 03' Yamaha GP1300R w/ Riva Stage 1 Kit on it which both do 65mph on GPS, and race them loud machines. There's going to be a lot of old unhappy people all around the lake at 830 in the AM!

PS - Are the King Cobra 460's REALLY that bad, or are they only bad because of the almost non-existant few parts to repair when broken? Like are they quality built and will last me awhile. I guess for an example is it like a honda or toyota with just minimal routine oil changes, tune-up and the thing will run for 200K+ or is it like American ( i have an 87 MCSS so I can say this!) and crap the bed after 100K and then you gotta start dumping money into it left and right?? I'm looking for some sort of positive hear. It seems most people tend to dwell on the negative's...unless their is nothing but negatives...hmmmm

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

It has to do with the parts availability. I read in another thread that couplers for 460's were not being made by anyone anymore. They had a link to someones website where they would modify a chevy's coupler to fit on the ford. They were very expensive in comparison to the chevy couplers. Exhausts manifolds are priced silly for the 460's also.

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

OK so with the motor having the exhaust manifold almost extinct, and the kind cobra coupling almost extinct, is their any other parts that might be hard to come by? If I need to do replace all gaskets/seals/filters and any other usual regular maintenance, am I going to have trouble getting these type of parts as well?

How about the stern drive? How are the parts availability with this?

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I'm a noobie, so I can ask!

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

I just pulled mine and swapped it for a total merc 350 vortec and alpha one drive setup. Took about 3 weeks of off and on work... But, man it is awesome now. And parts are dime a dozen. You can sell the parts off your setup for a good penny to pay for the swap. I got 800 just for the drive and that was a deal I gave to a friend.

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

hmmm, thats good to know actually. I've read and seen a few setups that have been put in the liberators. I'm a sucker for the big blocks, and since I hate anything to do with Ford, I'd have to go with the merc 454 and not sure of the drive, any suggestions would be cool.

But for now, it ain't broke so I ain't gunna fix it. I'm gunna drive it til it dies... hopefully not in the middle of the ocean.

 

[cr2k]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

If you want to go Big Block you are looking at a Bravo Drive. Harder to come by and more expensive than an Alpha.

And if you are stuck deciding between a late model Alpha Gen 1 and an Alpha Gen II take the Gen I.

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

so your saying I should get the bravo but I can also get the alpha gen 1 drive as well?

 

[superpop]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

I would not strap a big block to an alpha, it will crater during one of your jet ski races. If you want to get a big block, you need the Bravo drive, or you could go to a Volvo DP drive as well. Either setup is probably way more than the boat is worth once you spend the money, ie you could buy another boat with a Merc or VP setup for less, way less. I would not drive this boat until it dies, as it will then be worth whatever you can get for the still good parts. It is probably worth more to a buyer if it is all running. Older glass hulls like this, unless it is unique, or in like new condition, are pretty much worthless without a good drive system. The only saving grace in this situation is that you do not have to re-glass the transom if you do decide to do a swap.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

so your saying I should get the bravo but I can also get the alpha gen 1 drive as well?

Howdy Mike,

Well, I would opt for the Bravo. It's really more in tune with the higher HP BB engines.

They'll be more money but I think you'll be happier in the long run. The Liberator DID come standard with a 454 and an Alpha for a while as did a LOT of other boats etc. Mercury offered the 454 with the Alpha for a couple of years then after that ONLY with the Bravo.


You can run your King Cobra until it breaks but if you do you won't get much for it! I was able to recover about $3000 selling all my King Kobra parts over the last few years.


There is a way to mitigate the manifold problem. There's some company out there that makes a set of adapters that will allow you to use BBC exhaust manifolds.

There's another company in Canada and probably here in the states that, if given your flywheel they'll modify (re-drill etc) it and install a different coupler that will work (I think it's a Volvo Penta BBC coupler)

That can solve 2 of the BIG show stoppers.

The other BIG show stopper is the actual drive. If you break the drive, there is some internal parts that were unique to the King and don't work in the other drives. No one makes those parts and they are truly "show stoppers".


Once I pulled my 460 and determined that I needed to rebuild the engine (flat camshaft) I was already to take it to the machine shop when I found that I couldn't buy manifolds or a coupler.... THat's where I stopped and started looking for a suitable replacement.

I almost bought a 2002 300HP 5.7L MPI/Bravo I that was removed by the local dealer that installed it. It was closed cooled, had 400 hrs on it and the owner wanted $7500. He turned down $6000 and I was starting to up the ante when I found a 1997 454/Bravo III with 120hrs on Craigslist (from a wind damaged 98 Bayliner) for $6000.

I offered $5000 and he took it.

It took me a few months (starting in DEC) to clean up/re-glass/repaint the whole engine compartment and install it......and although I didn't work on it for weeks at a time, I had it ready to rock and roll in the summer!

Before

After

There's not a lot "wrong" with the 460 King Cobra. Mine ran for almost 15 years with little or no problems (My brother bought the boat new) By the way, he told me it would do 60mph(radar) at 5000 RPM!! It was a little slow out of the hole but once up on a plane...it flew! (20p 3 blade SS prop)

OMC only offered the 460 for 87/88/89 with the cobra. It was not all that popular and because of that the after-market sort of abandoned it.

Because of that certain parts are simply no longer available.


Now with the 454/Bravo III, I can (only) get it to go 57mph on my GPS at 4600rpm. But now, it just ROCKETS out of the hole!!! (more than twice as fast according to my brother) and accelerates far quicker at any speed..... (I attribute that to the 'dual-prop" Bravo III)


Here's a comparison of the drives.

I want more power of course.....

so I may rebuild the 454 in the future or replace it with a built up 502.......But you can NEVER have enough power, right?


My suggestion? Run the king Cobra carefully and start looking for a "Donor" boat with a BBC 454/502 and a Bravo I or a Bravo III.....

I like the Bravo III


Cheers,


Rick

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

Rick, your the berries guy!

I didn't think anyone would really help me with information as I've been on MANY forums, not necessarily boats, but cars and no one really steps up and helps one out.

I figure since I just bought the boat and obviously have to wait til about April/May to put it in, I might as well enjoy it for a season right? In the mean time, I have an 87 MCSS that needs MORE POWER too! It's a toss-up between what I enjoy more and want to dump more money into.... my boat or my car, and honestly I more of a car guy, so the boat motor/drive may have to wait. I don't plan on putting like 80 hours on the Libby, maybe 40-60 depending on cash flow and time to play. It's in rediculous shape, no tears, no fading on the wood or dash. Two small dings on bottom of drive and 1 scratch on the bottom of the V-hull... seriously.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

Yeah, it sounds like a nice one!

Well,

If you want to "run it"........ There's some things you NEED TO DO before, since you really don't know what the previous owner REALLY DID with it. (unless he's a family member..... ) My Brother (bless his heart) told me that all mine needed was to be timed, since he had already replaced points/plugs/condenser/wiring/etc.


Get your hands on an OEM 1987 model year OMC Cobra service manual.
(I got mine on ebay.....I see them there from time to time)



Remove the drive and check the alignment (you don't want that coupler destroying itself......That's a 20+ year old boat...if the front engine mounts are getting soft, it may have "dropped" a little and will ruin the coupler in short order.)

A year ago or so, I sold my Cobra gimbal and flywheel housing to a guy in Los Angeles that was repairing a big Bayliner that had the coupler literally EXPLODE during a nearly full throttle run out to Catalina Island.

When it blew up it completely destroyed the flywheel housing! (That's another part for an OMC/460 that is simply NOT AVAILABLE at any price unless you go to a salvage yard and then if you can find one, they're frequently all corroded...... )

He had been looking for one for quite some time. He told me he was just about to tell the guy that he would have to replace the whole mess with a Merc or VP when he found me.
(I didn't think anyone wanted the aluminum housing and was going to throw it in with the rest of the "recycle-aluminum" I was taking to the "junkie"!)


Same thing with the exhaust Y-pipe. I didn't think it was worth anything when a guy contacted me indicating that he was going to have to switch his boat to thru-hull because he couldn't find one. (when they corrode and subsequently leak, and the boat is in the water, the boat sinks!!)

He was pretty happy to hear from me!!


I sold the engine to a local guy that wanted to put it in a truck.... I kept the carb (I rebuilt it and still have it...) I also still have the 20p and 17p SS props.......



I never had a problem with the drive. My brother did though, but luckily the "Dealer" was at fault......... two different FourWinns dealers and two different "Rocket Scientist" "mechanics" destroyed the drive. The first one didn't bother to put oil in it at all!!

The second one tried to fill it like a Mercruiser!(from the bottom)

Both dealers stepped up and replaced/rebuilt the drive each time! (to their credit) with no lawyering-up.


You also should remove and check the riser gaskets. If they leak they WILL allow small amounts of water to run back into open exhaust valves everytime you shut it off.


After doing those simple things, you could run it for quite some time while looking for either a Mercruiser or Volvo Penta BBC engine/drive.

Either will basically fit in the Cobra cut out with minor changes to the front engine mount location.

Look on ebay for availability of engines and drives etc.....There seems to be more Mercruiser engines and drives out there than Volvo (about 3:1) but both are just fine.....If I had found a BBC/Volvo Duo-prop first for a good price, It would in there right now.


Good luck,



Rick

 

[Mike87Monte]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

Thanks Rick,

Well after all that trouble of asking the question I talked with the guy I was buying it from, I was paying monthly installments until the boat was paid off, and we agreed to end the deal and hes going to give me some of my money back. I guess I jumped into the boat too early. I knew it was a rare boat but didn't know of ALL the problems associated with it. If it was needed for repair I would probably be in an awful position. I'm not going to look into another boat for now. I'm just gunna try to get my Chevy 360 motor to at least 400hp instead... unless of course a good deal comes up...

 

[zbnutcase]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

FORD was never the problem, the problem was OMC, nothing wrong at all with the base marine engines, just the half-baked marinizing that was OMC-and they paid the ultimate price. 'nutcase

 

[longstand]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

Nahh. Mike.. Just Put a Corvette Engine.. that will fix your FORD Engine Problem.. if you want more power I have an a friend that has a RB22 Skyline Engine. twin turbo.. its on sale.. i think that should work


<< Just JOKING, don't take this Advice >>>

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I think I'm getting scared....

There's a guy over on the "Offshoreonly.com" site that had a 460 King Cobra Liberator. The 460 can be built to VERY large cu-inches and he did just that. When he sold the boat he said he could "Bury the speedometer at 80mph"

That would take a LOT of HP! It would also put quite a strain on a coupler that no longer exists! and a drive that has limited capability for rebuild.

There's nothing wrong with a 460. It's just that NO ONE uses them anymore in a sterndrive application.

When that's the case, doing anything with them in a boat, becomes "scary" expensive.