Reel gear ratios

[mjbll]

Could someone explain to me why big high capacity saltwater reels have such a low gear ratio?I fish in the gulf of Mexico in depths from 50-200ft.Most of my reels have ratios from 3.5-4:1.I was looking at a Penn Senator reel because of the high capacity and noticed most of them have a 2-3:1 ratio which is a slower retrieve.If I have a big fish that has ran off 200-400yrds of line would I be reeling forever to get it to the boat?Some please explain this to me.Thanks.

 

[ReelPlumber]

Re: Reel gear ratios

That low of gear is meant for pulling large fish (grouper) up off the bottom or tile fish from down deep. I use the penn senators for deep dropping. I use to troll with them but like you said it takes forever to reel them back in from a shotgun.

If you want a reel for trolling and bottom you can buy something that is a 2 speed like the Shimano TLD 30 or 50 or the Tiagra's. I troll with both of these and bottom fish with both also.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Reel gear ratios

Could someone explain to me why big high capacity saltwater reels have such a low gear ratio?I fish in the gulf of Mexico in depths from 50-200ft.Most of my reels have ratios from 3.5-4:1.I was looking at a Penn Senator reel because of the high capacity and noticed most of them have a 2-3:1 ratio which is a slower retrieve.If I have a big fish that has ran off 200-400yrds of line would I be reeling forever to get it to the boat?Some please explain this to me.Thanks.

Which is a slower retrieve? A 4:1 gear ratio combined with a 1.5" diameter spool or a 2:1 ratio combined with a 3" diameter spool? Which reel provides more torque?

Here are some calculations I did for an article in our club newsletter comparing several locally popular reels used in Stripe Bass fishing.

The rate of line recovery and the torque of the reel is a function of not only the gear ratio but also the length of the handle and the diameter of the line on the spool.

Let?s take a look at four very common reels used on the Bay:

Model----------Gear ratio
Penn 113 ---------2.5:1
Penn 113HSP ---2.9:1
Penn 113H2 -----3.3:1
Penn 330 ---------3.6:1

All four reels have roughly the same 2.0" diameter spool when full of line. So to crank in 10 lbs of force on the line the reel would have to produce (1" x 10#) 10 inch pounds of torque at the spool. To give you an idea of where this is leading, if you spooled the same reel to a spool diameter of say 1.75", it would only require (0.875" x 10#) 8.75 inch pounds of torque to pull against that same 10lbs of force.

With the advent of high strength, small diameter braided lines you can fit much more line on a reel for a given spool size. So you can take advantage of this. I did a few calculations and came up with the ?effective? spool diameters required to crank in that 10 lbs of force while exhorting the same amount of force at the handle on each reel:

Penn 113 = 2" diameter (1? x 10# = 10 inch pounds)
Penn 113HSP = 1.8" diameter (0.9? x 10# = 9 inch pounds)
Penn 113H2 = 1.5" diameter (0.75? x 10# = 7.5 inch pounds)
Penn 330 = 1.3" diameter (0.65? x 10# = 6.5 inch pounds)

You say you?re worried about the reduced diameter of spools affecting speed of retrieval?
Rate of retrieval = (Effective spool diameter x 3.14 x gear ratio)

Penn 113 = 15.7? per turn of the handle
Penn 113HSP = 16.39? per turn of the handle
Penn 113H2 = 15.54? per turn of the handle
Penn 330 = 14.73? per turn of the handle

The number of ?cranks of the handle? to retrieve a bait from 250? behind the boat.

Penn 113 = 191 cranks
Penn 113HSP = 183 cranks
Penn 113H2 = 193 cranks
Penn 330 = 203 cranks

The next thing we come to is drag. Drag is the reels ability to resist the force being applied at the spool. In this scenario all 4 reels share a common drag stack so they all produce the same amount of drag force at the spool. (The gear ratio and the strength of the pinion gear play into it as well but let?s keep it simple right now.) Since all four reels exhort the same drag force, the determining factor in the reels drag performance is the force at the spool.

Drag ratio= (available resistance / Torque on spool) for purposes we?ll use 20 inch pounds as the available resistance

The 113 = 20 / 10 = 2 Drag ratio
The 113HSP = 20 / 9 = 2.2 Drag ratio
The 113H2 = 20 / 7.5 = 2.6 Drag ratio.

 

[mjbll]

Re: Reel gear ratios

Wow I didnt think about the spool size and other factors.I was looking at either the Penn 113 or 114 series reels.

 

[thurps]

Re: Reel gear ratios

When you have " The Big One " on, none of the above matters.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Reel gear ratios

When you have " The Big One " on, none of the above matters.

Obviously your idea of "the big on" an my idea of "the big one" are not quite the same if you don?t think any of this makes a difference.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Reel gear ratios

Wow I didnt think about the spool size and other factors.I was looking at either the Penn 113 or 114 series reels.

My preference would be the Penn 113H

 

[Boatist]

Re: Reel gear ratios

Reels really should be rated by inches of line retreived per turn of the handel on a full spool.

One other factor is how hard is the handel to turn. We fish the Ocean down to about 400 feet when allowed. I have about 50 casting style reels and pole combos. Reels from a Abu Garcia 6500 CS and Record.
Also Penn reels 309 113H 330GT 320 gt2.

When we fish deep and use 1 pound or larger weights my Wife has trouble reeling up a large fish from the deep. Her favorite pole has a penn 301 cheap reel.
So I figured I would up grade her to a Penn 330 with Ball Bearings and a higher retreive speed.
So we went out deep and after fishing a few hours Wife just quit fishing.
I ask her what was wrong and she said this reel is just too hard to turn.
She had never quite fishing before so I got her old pole out for her and she was happy and catching fish again.
I had figured the ball bearings and faster retreive would make it easier on her but it was just the opposite.

Only problem is if fishing Tuna she can not keep up with the fish but then again when cranking up that weight the lower gear ratio is a big advantage.

For tuna one should really have a two speed reel.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Reel gear ratios

Reels really should be rated by inches of line retreived per turn of the handel on a full spool.

One other factor is how hard is the handel to turn. We fish the Ocean down to about 400 feet when allowed. I have about 50 casting style reels and pole combos. Reels from a Abu Garcia 6500 CS and Record.
Also Penn reels 301 113H 330GT 320 gt2.

When we fish deep and use 1 pound or larger weights my Wife has trouble reeling up a large fish from the deep. Her favorite pole has a penn 301 cheap reel.
So I figured I would up grade her to a Penn 330 with Ball Bearings and a higher retreive speed.
So we went out deep and after fishing a few hours Wife just quit fishing.
I ask her what was wrong and she said this reel is just too hard to turn.
She had never quite fishing before so I got her old pole out for her and she was happy and catching fish again.
I had figured the ball bearings and faster retreive would make it easier on her but it was just the opposite.

Reels at a minimum are triple reduction devices. You have handle to drive gear, drive gear to main gear and you have main gear to spool. Inches per turn of the handle doesn't tell you anything either because it only addresses two of the three variables that determines the reel?s torque capability. Now if they rated reels by the torque available at the spool with a full spool of line then you would have something.

Hoisting something up from 400? down will tire out Arnold Schwarzenegger after a while. To assist your wife try going with a shorter rod and put a power handle (part #24-349H) on the 330. The handle alone will reduce the torque required to hoist load X by about 10-15% right off the top. Depending on the action of the rod, going from a 7 foot rod to 6 foot rodswill reduce the needed torque by another 10% or so.

I've never fished for tuna out West but around here chasing tuna with a Penn 330 would be like showing up to a gun fight with a knife.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Reel gear ratios

DingBat
I agree with everything you said.
All our Ocean rods have the power handel even the penn 309.
Rock fish rods, Sturgeon, Halibut, and Shark rods all have the penn power handels.
Out here California has solved the problem for us anyway. They have limited how deep you can fish for 6 years now. It been a max of 120 feet or 20 fathoms until this year where we got 180 feet or 30 fathoms.
Wife two main rods are the shortest and lightest we have. They are 6 feet and very light in weight and rated 20 to 40 pound test. They are perfect for her.
Also the Spectra small diameter lines mean less weight and eaiser to crank too.

Salmon has been closed 2 years for the entire state with a few exceptions.
The indians have been able to fish any depth and even use nets for a short time up north near the Klamath river. Also they had a 9 day season in a very small area up north late in the season this year.

Fishing is not important to Hollywood stars or farmers in Southern California.
Since Arnoald is one of the Hollywood stars he also belives all water should be pump to Southern Cal. Farmers think they should be able to farm all the Southern Cal Deserts.
I believe that some day that the Sacramento River will become like the Colorado river and no longer reach the Pacific Ocean.
The only thing that is stopping it right now is the Federal Endangered Speicies act and the Federal courts. All Streams are dammed up letting man control when and who get the water.
Some dam have a fish hatchery at the base but for the last few years the water has been so low the fish can not make it to the hatchery.
Really does not matter anyway because even if they hatch and are released into the river they think they should swim down stream to the Ocean.
Down stream is no longer the ocean it the pumps to pump water to Southern California. Actualy there is about 1 hour at the peak of the EBB tide where some water flow toward the Golden Gate and the Ocean.
With so little flow and all the rice farms and cities draining into the river the river is so poluted that even if they make it by the pumps they are likely to die before they get to the ocean.
Instead of fixing the water problems they limit fishing like closing Salmon fishing for the entire 1100 mile length of the State of California.
Rock fish you can only catch certains speices and limits are down to 10 fish with many rockfish limits at 1 fish and also size limits,
Sturgeon now can only keep 3 fish a year and must be between 46 and 72 inches.

I carry 3 full size books plus the fishing regulation and the fishing regulations suplimental put out later. You really need a Law degree and two paralegals to go fishing in California Today. Not much fun.
At least my Kids learned to fish but I dout the Grand kids ever will.

Anyway the wife really likes the lower Gear ratio and a handle that is easy to turn.