Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

[cr2k]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

When the "solenoid" clunks is it the part that is on the starter? That is part of the field of the starter too. And when it pulls down it pushes out the bendix AND it makes an electrical contact under the cover to engage the armature. If these contacts are bad or dirty it will not spin.

 

[ENSIGN]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Sooner or later you'll put a wrench on that crank!!!

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Put a wrench on the crank to see if it turns. There are several things that are possible issues as have already been mentioned, broken tooth in gear, hydro lock, bad battery, etc. However, until you know if the crank will turn, you cannot narrow the issue to LU gears, HL, or battery/starter. Three different directions are possible with this issue...

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Well I had the same symptoms as you about 4 months ago on my 351W after putting it back in after a transom rebuild. I turned the key, heard the clunk, but no movement of the crank. I did see some smoke after 2 seconds or so, so I pulled the starter off and had it rebuilt. Then, I reinstalled it, same clunk, no smoke, no turning of the crank.

The result: back starboard cylinder full of water. The riser gasket failed and let the little bit of water that was in the manifold back in through the exhaust valve. Rusted the piston to the cylinder and I couldn't break it loose, so I'm currently rebuilding the entire engine since it's worth the extra cost to do it on a 700+ hours engine that's 40 years old. My suggestion is to try and turn the crank by hand, that will narrow down a large expensive issue quickly.

 

[ToddfromCA]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

So does anybody think I should put a wrench on the crank?

Fellas, I did it but I had to just hunt down the right tools. Things are not good. Wouldn't turn. Pulled the plugs and 4 of 8 are wet. As always with these center rise manifolds, its the ones in the middle. Squirted some ATF in the cylinders for the night. Hopefully I can turn it over in the morning but I'm not optomistic. As of now, still won't turn

Having my mechanic come by in the morning to probably pull the thing apart and see what we can salvage.

I'm a little bent since I am extra diligent with the manifold/riser inspections yearly and replace before their time. As I said, I'm literally a month and a half off my last inspection. ARRGH!!

Well, crying about it isn't going to do any good and we all know what boat stands for.....still open to any suggestions at this point. Probably pulling the drive in the morning as well.

Thanks to all of you for the help, this board is really a class act. And about the advice to listen to Bond-o, I'm all for it. The only other question I've asked here, he answered and was right, the drive bolted right up.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Sorry to hear that you have an issue with moisture in the cylinders. You said that you put ATF in there to sit overnight. I read on here that one of the best penetrating concoctions is 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone. If you can't turn it tomorrow, do the 50/50 mix a try again. Once you get it free, you might be okay... Good luck

 

[ENSIGN]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Pressure test the engine and manifolds,you could have more than a manifold/riser problem(lets hope not) Good luck,Ted

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

And about the advice to listen to Bond-o, I'm all for it. The only other question I've asked here, he answered and was right, the drive bolted right up.

Ayuh,... I Wish I'd been Wrong on this 1,..... Sorry....

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

WOW, that stinks.......really thought it was going to be the ground.......too bad.

 

[ToddfromCA]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Update...

Frozen solid!!

Mechanic can't turn it either way. Bringing over the picker to take it out and asess what happened and if rebuild is possible or if I'll be needing a long block.

He's been telling me for a while that these center rise manifolds are not the best as they've got limited bolts (4 instead of 8) and don't have enough rise to create a smooth downhill transition to the Y pipe. He's recommending a possible conversion to the original style with riser aft. Anybody else second that notion?

Interested to see if its a cracked head, exhaust leak, or maybe intake manifold issue? We'll see

Argggh. A new boat with a nice simple detroit and straight shaft is looking better and better everyday

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Are you on salt water? How long did it sit since it was last run?...just curious.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

He's been telling me for a while that these center rise manifolds are not the best as they've got limited bolts (4 instead of 8) and don't have enough rise to create a smooth downhill transition to the Y pipe.

Ayuh,... That's a load of Bull....
You have a Water leak, not an Exhaust leak... The manifold is so massive,+ rigid, those 4 bolts are all that's needed for the clamping force to seal the Exhaust gasket....

If you don't have sufficient drop, add a set of riser blocks between the manifolds,+ risers,... 3" otta do...
They come in 3",+ 6"...

Who did the manifold change in the 1st place,..??

 

[ToddfromCA]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Yes to salt water

about 1 month since last run in the salt, 1 week or so since last time it turned over.

ok thanks for the heads up bond-o. I'll check into what you're talking about here.

uhhhhh, same guy that came out.

What do you think I should do? He's always been good to me in the past (correctly diagnosed an incorrectly geared outdrive, discounted labor on occassions, taken my calls and walked me through a few on the water troubleshoots, came out right away this time and dropped family obligations, and has really educated me on a number of things in the past) so I don't want to go accusing him of doing a poor job servicing the motor, especially if I'm not 100% sure what the cause was.

However, I always go by his call on the manifold/riser issues. If he says they need to be replaced, I do it. If he says they have another year, I trust him. What's the norm for this? Or I guess what should I expect? Of couse I plan on manning up and talking to him in person, but I've never experienced this and curious for a neutral unbiased opinion. Is this something that is just the nature of boats and I need to just bite the bullet (I am willing), or could this be partly his responsibility (don't want to be a complete pushover either)?

Not looking for a legal opinion, no lawsuits here, just kind of a industry/service good or typical practice.

Yuck...this stinks

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Ayuh,... He sounds like a nice fella,... We all make mistakes when re-engineering old tubs...
With the Ford, your choices are pretty limited...

Maybe just help your guy to explore the possibilities I've mentioned...

1st thing is to see what went wrong where though....

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Guess that's proof of how fast salt water can ruin an engine.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Looks like you get to join me in an engine rebuild! On a side-note I think your mechanic is mistaken on the center-rise manifolds. They are no more failure-prone than any other design. The problem is that you had a riser gasket fail, not that there wasn't a good seal between the manifold and the exhaust port. I was actually considering going TO the center-rise style to replace my log-style, I'll be happy to trade you manifolds if you want.

My engine was sitting on the picker for a few months after removing it for the transom rebuild. That was more than enough time for the piston ring to rust to the cylinder wall. I will be rebuilding mine to hopefully around 300HP from the previous 233HP. Good luck, sorry it was the starter at fault!

 

[ToddfromCA]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

He is a nice guy and the kind of mobile guy I trust in the backyard when I'm not home. Thanks for the reassurance.

I should clarify that the center rise issue he'd been speaking of was about my recently excessive blowing of exhaust gaskets. Two on same side of motor in the same 6 month period. He told me that if any water drips down from the riser/mani gasket area, it falls right onto the exhaust gasket in the center and compromises the gasket, hence the premature blowouts. He thinks the 8 bolt will help but he did also say the real issue is the drips of water.

His big issue is with the lack of slope which I thnk bondo nailed on the head with the 3" spacer.

Still, I agree that that probably isn't the culprit. I just can't believe how meticulous you can be and still have something like this happen! These are new risers, 2yr old manifolds, new gaskets, and a 4yr old motor. Still waiting to find a culprit...may be a few weeks.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

He told me that if any water drips down from the riser/mani gasket area, it falls right onto the exhaust gasket in the center and compromises the gasket,

Ayuh,... I don't quite buy that,....

#1,... If it's been KNOWN that the riser/ manifold gaskets were Leaking,...

Why O Why wasn't it Fixed....
No reason to be Looking for the culprit,... It's plain as Day to me...
That's Exactly what put you in the position your in Right Now...
That water runs right passed the exhaust gaskets, Right into the center cylinders...

My sympathy for your problem is slipping,...
You brought this onto yourself by Not Fixin' a Known Issue...

What's the Brand of these 2 year old manifolds,..?? GLM,..??

 

[ToddfromCA]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

Brother Bond-o, what gives???

That is fine, its not my assessment I'm not going to go defending something I'm not clear on.

It was fixed.....or at least I tried to fix it.....hence the NEW riser, NEW gaskets, etc.

I didn't bring anything onto myself! I bought new risers, I pay yearly to have them + manifolds inspected and I don't ever get cheap and try to push it. Again, I"m not a pro....my inpection of something like a riser is amateur at best. I'm relying on somebody elses experience to tell me if it needs replacing and then I pay for it. I pay for them to come and tell me if I have a problem, and pay them more if I do.

Sorry but I'm kind of taken back by this. I've said a few times that I had the exhaust serviced a month ago or so. Something I proactively pay for as just part of boat ownership. When we did the sevice, we pulled plugs, took oil samples and double checked compression to see if any damage had been done by a leaker. Everything looked good!

I'm not trying to get my panties in a wad here, especially with you as you've been very helpful so I don't know if your just not remembering me talking about the servicing and riser replacement. I'll give you that it was 30 replies ago? LOL I'm sorry your sympathy is slipping, I really don't know what I can do for that bud? Trust me, if he'd said the manifolds were as good as AR-15 target practice they'd be gone, just like their predecessors.

For whatever its worth I'll check to see the mfg'r. I don't remember off hand. Maybe Barr or Osco?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ford 351W, starter clunks but doesn't spin flywheel

I should clarify that the center rise issue he'd been speaking of was about my recently excessive blowing of exhaust gaskets. Two on same side of motor in the same 6 month periodHe told me that if any water drips down from the riser/mani gasket area,. it falls right onto the exhaust gasket in the center and compromises the gasket, hence the premature blowouts. He thinks the 8 bolt will help but he did also say the real issue is the drips of water.

Ayuh,.. Sorry Todd, I was in a hurry when I posted that,...
But,...
The quote above says there was evidence of water leaking from the Riser gaskets for over 6 months...
If the manifold to head gaskets were replaced 3 times,+ it was blamed on water leaking from the Riser Gaskets,....
Why wasn't the Riser to Manifold junction dealt with the 1st time this happened,..??

Again, the 4 bolt manifolds are Industry Standard,... Most All of 'em are that way,... The manifold is Sooo Rigid, it only needs 4 bolts, 'ell 2 would probably Work...

The leaking Riser gaskets are Where the water came from...
At the very 1st sign of Riser Leakage is the time to Find the Problem,...
It Sounds like the failure of the Riser Gaskets were blamed for the other gasket failures, yet gone Undealt with...
Btw, Just changing the gaskets Ain't dealing with the issue...

Pulling the risers,+ replacing the gasket is only part of what is your annual rites,...
Inspecting the manifold,+ riser for signs of Why it's leaking is much more important than Just changing gaskets...
If it leaked once,+ the gaskets were replaced, Why wasn't the Fault found, atleast on the 2nd go-around,..??
By your story, This is the 4th go-around with Leaking Riser Gaskets....
It appears that the manifold gasket surfaces are compromised in some way,... Rust erosion,..?? Not Flat,..??
I donno,... I can't see 'em...

Good Luck man,+ Sorry if my posts come off harsh,... It's a by-product of single digit typing...