Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Nambucca

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I have a 351 requiring new heads, can any one advise me wheather to use open or closed chamber heads for my ski boat?
Regards
Dave
 

Bondo

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Ayuh,... I would think replacing with copies of what's there would be your Best bet...
 

mkast

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

If the piston stays the same, the smaller the combustion chamber, the higher the compression ratio.
 

HVAC Cruiser

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Unless your looking to rebuild the entire engine I would listen to Bond-o, and here is why.

What mkast said is true , if your engine now has open chamber heads and you install closed chamber heads your compression ratio will go up BUT you need to be real careful with doing that, for a few reasons. I'm a chevy guy myself, but it should apply to ford too. 1st will it bump your compression to the point where you can't run pump gas, math needed here to calculate what your new CR (compression ratio) will be. Second, is yor piston going to hit the head?

Keep in mind if you have closed chamber heads your CR will plummet. think of it this way, and these are purely hypothetical numbers not real, for simplicity. Lets say right now with closed chamber heads your cylinder volume is 100cc at BDC ( bottom dead center) and your head volume is 50cc your total volume is then 150cc. When your piston is at TDC (top dead center) you have taken your air fuel mixure and compressed it down to 50cc for a 3:1 compression ratio ( although with a 3:1 you would have little to no power, sorry just to tired to think 8.5-13.3 cr right now)

Now take that same engine an put a 100cc head on her, your total chamber vol. is now 200cc. when the piston is at TDC its 100cc that is only a 2:1 ratio you just lost your CR and your power.

Now if your not looking to rebuild the entire engine BUT looking for more power and the bottom end can handle it, you should look towards runner volume, valve diameter etc.. But with valve dia you need to have your clay handy to check piston valve relieves.

Hope I helped a little
This was just my .02
 

jtybt

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

? What's a closed chamber/ open chamber head? Never heard that reference before.
 

HVAC Cruiser

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

? What's a closed chamber/ open chamber head? Never heard that reference before.

Short answer:
With a closed chamber head the combustion chamber is "D" or heart shaped, an open chamber head the combustion chamber is perfectly round.
The difference in the chamber affects the combustion quench area at TDC, there is also a difference in chamber volume. An open chamber head typically is a higher volume so a dome type piston is used.
In the automotive world a 351C a closed chamber head is 64-67cc an open chamber head is 74-77cc I imaging its the same for marine
 

jimbo3123

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

In the automotive world a 351C a closed chamber head is 64-67cc an open chamber head is 74-77cc I imaging its the same for marine


That's good info. I've got another question though.
My boat has a 351 Windsor. I would assume that the OP has the 351W as well.

Do you know if both open and closed chamber heads available for that engine too?
 

HVAC Cruiser

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

That's good info. I've got another question though.
My boat has a 351 Windsor. I would assume that the OP has the 351W as well.

Do you know if both open and closed chamber heads available for that engine too?

No clue if he has a W or a C, he posed the question so I assumed ( and we all know what that does :eek: lol) it was a Cleavland. In the auto world open chamber was only installed with regard to the 351 to my knowledge from Ford on the Cleavland. In the auto world the Windsor was the lower performance side of the 351 family. I have built only a few fords in my time mostly big blocks 390's - 460's
If your looking swap out your heads to boost your torque and HP and the lower end of the engine can handle it I would look into a better flowing aftermarket head
BUT when you start playing like that you have to make sure you make your selections very carefully matching all components, such as fuel delivery, cam, pistons etc.

That's why I believe what Bond-o said is the best advice just replace whats there with like parts.
 

Nambucca

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Thanks for the info regarding my 351 heads.
Further info I should have given is that it is a Cleveland.
This motor started out in life as a 302, however the crank & rods were changed to 351, I guess this is why it has closed chamber heads.
The pistons are flat tops.
So I guess that what Bond-o said makes sense, which means I should replace my stuffed C C with O C.
Any other comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again
Regards Dave
 

dan t.

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

cleavland in a boat? if you do it is one rare beast. I have seen lots of 351 windsors, most marine versions came with 302 heads. any small block head will work, 289,302 or 351. all came with a variaty of chamber sises and port volumes. also different valve sises. figure out your compression ratio and try to stay around 9 to 1. a 2 barrel head will have smaller valves which will give you better bottom end torque
 

dan t.

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Nambucca, just FYI you cant make a 351 out of a 302 it is a different block, taller deck
 

Bondo

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Further info I should have given is that it is a Cleveland.
This motor started out in life as a 302,

Ayuh,... That's kinda hard to believe...
If only because the Cleveland motor has Nothing in common with the Windsor 302....
 

rbh

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

The only time you would find a set of cleveland 4v/boss heads on a 302 is if it was a boss 302, lots of top end though.
 

haulnazz15

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

I've never seen/heard of a 351C in a marine application. The Windsors weren't "lower performance", they were just a two-bolt main as opposed to the 4-bolt main the Cleveland series had. The 351C was used in far fewer applications and fewer were produced. In any case, the 351W heads are *mostly* the same. Somewhere between 64cc and 70cc or so. (earlier heads had lower cc's, thus higher compression ratio. The difference between the heads in any case would likely result in less than a half point compression ratio increase with the same pistons. So if original was 8.5:1, you may be at 9.0:1, no big deal.
 

mkast

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Further info I should have given is that it is a Cleveland.

Cleveland heads are quite a bit wider (measuring from the intake manifold face to the exhaust manifold face) than Windsor heads.
Mercruiser 302's used a 351 Windsor camshaft, that's why the firing order is different than the stock 302. Look at the intake manifold, the firing order is cast (raised) on the top of the manifold. Because of the cam change, the numbers should be ground off and "stamped" (indented) on the manifold.
 

haulnazz15

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

There's no way you have a 302 turned into a 351C, they're completely different and the 351W/C parts don't interchange. You CAN turn a 302 into a 351 by modifying the deck height to accomodate the longer stroke, but it's still a 351W at that point. Two-bolt main vs. four-bolt.
 

HVAC Cruiser

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

I've never seen/heard of a 351C in a marine application. The Windsors weren't "lower performance", they were just a two-bolt main as opposed to the 4-bolt main the Cleveland series had. The 351C was used in far fewer applications and fewer were produced. In any case, the 351W heads are *mostly* the same. Somewhere between 64cc and 70cc or so. (earlier heads had lower cc's, thus higher compression ratio. The difference between the heads in any case would likely result in less than a half point compression ratio increase with the same pistons. So if original was 8.5:1, you may be at 9.0:1, no big deal.

Sorry lower performance was probably a poor choice of words. But the 351c was the Ford Hot rod poison of choice in the 351 family. When building for performance and given the choice folks tend to use a 4 bolt main for the most bullet proof bottom end possible.

The 64-70cc you refer to is still a closed chamber head, I was recommending he stayed with whatever he had now, his closed vs open question

Yes, 351w heads depending on the year actually went from 58-69cc depending on the year. 351c open chamber heads are 74-77cc.

Here is a pretty good chart with ford head specs and some pics for anyone that might need the info

http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mustang/Specs/heads-fr.html
 

rbh

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Sorry lower performance was probably a poor choice of words. But the 351c was the Ford Hot rod poison of choice in the 351 family. When building for performance and given the choice folks tend to use a 4 bolt main for the most bullet proof bottom end possible.

The 64-70cc you refer to is still a closed chamber head, I was recommending he stayed with whatever he had now, his closed vs open question

Yes, 351w heads depending on the year actually went from 58-69cc depending on the year. 351c open chamber heads are 74-77cc.

Here is a pretty good chart with ford head specs and some pics for anyone that might need the info

http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mustang/Specs/heads-fr.html

There seems to be something off on the chart, my DOAE-E are 4v heads, these have the quench/liver combustion chambers, same as the 70 boss.
 

mrdjflores

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Re: Ford 351 head closed/ open chamber

Short History of the Small-Block Windsor Engine
(and a bit of info on some other Mustang engines)

This Windsor, Ontario built 90? V8 was introduced in 1962 as a 221 cubic inch engine. It was Ford's first modern lightweight small-block replacing the old Y-block. In '63 it was available as a 260 and 289. The 221 has a bore of 3.5 inches, the 260 has 3.8 and the 289 had a 4-inch bore. The 289 had larger valves.

'66 289-4V

Through the years not all small-block Windsors were actually produced at the Ontario plant, but the name has stayed with the engine.

The Windsor, Ontario engine plant

The gross horsepower rating of the 221 was only 145. The 289 was 195 with a 2-barrel carburetor and 225 with the 4-barrel. The rare High Performance 289 was rated at 271 HP (about 13,000 HiPo Mustangs were made between the '65 and '67 model years).

Shelby used the 289 HiPo as the base for his GT350. The Shelby's were rated at 306 HP by using a larger carb, high-rise intake and less restrictive exhaust.

In Ford's GT40 the 289 had 390 normally aspired HP!

In 1968 the stroke was increased bringing the displacement to 302 cubic inches (4.9 liters). This engine was in the Mustang through 1995. In '68 a 2 and 4 barrel version of the 302 was available. The '68 Shelby GT350 was a 302. With the introduction of the 351 Windsor in '69 the 4 barrel 302 was dropped.

By 1971 smog laws began robbing horsepower with reduced compression ratios and the addition of mechanical smog devices. The 302 was not available in the '74 Mustang II. It returned in '75, but rated at only 140 HP.

Ford introduced the "High Output" 302 in '82, Throttle Body Fuel Injection in '84, Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection in '86, and bigger heads from a truck engine in '87. As computers started taking over control of emissions in the early 80's horsepower began increasing every year from '82 through '87.



The Boss 302

This car was built for Trans Am road racing. It used a 302 Windsor, but with cylinder heads from the 351 Cleveland. Ford had to build at least 1,000 street cars per year to meet SCCA racing rules.

'70 Boss 302



The 351 Windsor

In 1969 the 302 was stretched to a 351 cubic inch engine rated at 250 HP with a 2 barrel and 290 HP with the 4 barrel. The 351W uses a taller block to increase the stroke. The 289, 302 and 351 Windsors all share a 4" bore.



The 351 Cleveland

The 351 Cleveland was produced for only four years -- from 1970-73. This was a different, larger block cast at the Cleveland, OH plant. It was rated at 300 HP with the 4 barrel carb in 1970.



The Big Blocks

The Ford "FE" big block spawned the 352, 390, 427 and 428 among others. The 427 was a big bore, high-revving expensive-to-build engine. The 390 was the first big block to see duty in the Mustang. The 428 was soon offered with a lot better performance for not much more money. The 428 Cobra Jet had 427 heads. Insurance costs, smog regulations, and finally the oil crisis killed off the big blocks in the early '70's.
Another big block was the 429/460.
 
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