Used boat market is sucking wind.

[jaxnjil]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

NADA is useless and the good banks know it. If I listed my boat at NADA value I would have a line around my house waiting to buy it. When I bought my boat 5 years ago, the bank didn't even blink an eye when I took out a loan for a purchase price that was considerably over NADA value. They didn't require a survey either. Walked in signed, the loan papers and walked out with a receipt for the wire transfer to the sellers bank account.

you stated that was 5 years ago


not so sure you will have the same results today


insurance levels seem to follow nada price guides pretty close

at least thats what jill and i see on our stuff. why pay $5000 for a boat when you can only insure it for $2500?

 

[KeyWestSkipper]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

The wall I've hit is most used boat owners don't know how badly the market has dropped out and they are asking way over the boats book/market value. .... I see them run the same ad on Craigslist and eBay for months without a hint of a real offer and they still don't get it.

I check out boats on Craigslist daily here in So Cal. and that's the impression I have too. There are a few - you recognize them after awhile - that have been listed over a year w/o any significant price movement.

I guess for many boat owners, once they buy their boat they essentially leave the buy/sell world for good until it's time to buy/sell again. So when it's time to post their boat, they take their years-old purchase price, consider all they had to spend for maintenance, then pull some arbitrary and completely unrealistic number out that makes them feel good.

And then there's the issue of photos. Why is it so hard, in 2010, to take and post a few decent photos of a boat? Why do most ads have poor or otherwise insufficient photos at best? That amazes me. Digital cameras are dirt cheap and easy to use. Ultimately,though, I stopped asking for better pictures and took them for the red flags they are. Instead poor photos are to me evidence of a guy with no pride in his boat, a guy who couldn't be troubled to get his hands dirty every weekend keeping her clean and well-maintained.

I had to look for just shy of a year, 11 mos, to find what I wanted, which was a 20' ish outboard powered WA. They're fairly hard to find around here, which is a pricing-factor NADA can't and doesn't take into account but something buyers and sellers need to.

Last thing I want to say is don't overlook the power of a boat-wanted ad if you are having a hard time finding what you want. It's just like jobs; a lot of the offerings persist in procrastination/foot dragging/limbo land before anyone spends the time/money to post it publicly. Just because it's not on the internet yet doesn't mean it's not out there. It probably IS out there. Your well-written boat wanted ad (or unsolicited resume and job-wanted letter) can give you first crack at something nice.

 

[sickwilly]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

If they can hold their price over time and do, they are not desperate. Craigslist if free, if I list at full NADA and get it, well then I can go get that new boat I want. If I don't get it, and no one offers me my price, so be it, I get to keep boating and enjoy what I have.

If the majority of sellers were desperate, the prices would be moving. If it was the fault of their being over-extended, the bank would already have the boat, it would be in auction, or they would fire sale it and make up the difference. The fact that they can and do sit and wait says they are financially sound. To get a deal, you need to find someone not financially sound, or work with those who are on a mutual price.

I see this with all the lake houses around here. After an incredible run up in price, I see some that have been for sale for over 2 years now, with no decrease in price. I am talking homes that 7 years ago could be had in the 200s now selling for 700K. No foreclosures, no fire sales, just people sitting with a price they want, still enjoying their lake houses.

So, yes the market may suck, but really it only sucks if you are desperate to sell. If you are not, you simply list your price and wait.

Guess that easy credit did not get as many people into pickles as the media made it out to be the case, at least around here for that matter!

 

[dingbat]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

you stated that was 5 years ago


not so sure you will have the same results today


insurance levels seem to follow nada price guides pretty close

at least thats what jill and i see on our stuff. why pay $5000 for a boat when you can only insure it for $2500?

I can guarantee you if I called the bank today it would be even easier. We now have an open line of credit and could write a check for it.

The boat is currently is insured for the original purchase price plus a $10K rider to cover the electronics and fishing tackle. My yearly insurance is $35 more a year than my monthly payment.

The problem I have is NADA is that their boat pricing is not adjusted for local or regional market variances. A $100K Porsche is worth a heck of a lot more in Beverly Hills than it is in Johnstown Pa. An offshore fishing boat is certainly worth more in Miami than in Phoenix. None of this is addressed by NADA

 

[CaptainKev]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

There's no doubt that the recreation transportation market is going to have a rough couple of years. The difficulty of getting credit will be the major stumbling block. In fact, in my neck of the woods, many banks are not offering credit for any "Seasonal" purchases, such as boats and motorcycles. While it's arguable that banker's got us into this mess, they are not about to stand in front of Congress and try to explain why they did it again. Based on the "new" banking climate, I've made the decision that if I can't pay cash, I'm not buying. I really don't think gas prices will have that much of an effect. When it got as high as $4.15 a gallon it didn't seem to reduce the boat, or motorcycle traffic where I live. IMHO, things are going to be very different. Our manufacturing sector is all but dead. Every U.S. company liaison with Chinese manufacturing seems to be fraught with corruption and mutual distrust. Wall Street appears to be on a different planet. The dollar is really struggling against foreign currencies and the oil companies do whatever they want. Other than that, things are great. While I really do try to be optimistic, I'm not about to ignore reality.
Kev.

 

[jt224]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

If they can hold their price over time and do, they are not desperate. Craigslist if free, if I list at full NADA and get it, well then I can go get that new boat I want. If I don't get it, and no one offers me my price, so be it, I get to keep boating and enjoy what I have.

If the majority of sellers were desperate, the prices would be moving. If it was the fault of their being over-extended, the bank would already have the boat, it would be in auction, or they would fire sale it and make up the difference. The fact that they can and do sit and wait says they are financially sound. To get a deal, you need to find someone not financially sound, or work with those who are on a mutual price.

I see this with all the lake houses around here. After an incredible run up in price, I see some that have been for sale for over 2 years now, with no decrease in price. I am talking homes that 7 years ago could be had in the 200s now selling for 700K. No foreclosures, no fire sales, just people sitting with a price they want, still enjoying their lake houses.

So, yes the market may suck, but really it only sucks if you are desperate to sell. If you are not, you simply list your price and wait.

Guess that easy credit did not get as many people into pickles as the media made it out to be the case, at least around here for that matter!

or if I list for 50%-80% above NADA from most of what I have seen. there are not as many boats for sale as craiglist and other free sites would lead you to believe. not many serious sellers just people listing cause its free so why not. that's been my experience.

 

[270win]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

I buy, restore and sell old muscle cars as a play money hobby. The market on the old cars has gone to crap too. I see cars now that I can buy for $10K that you couldn't touch 2 years ago for twice that.

I've found some deals in this market too...mainly from watching cars on ebay and CL and talking to the sellers. After 6 months or so they realize that their car isn't going to bring anything near what they want. Cash talks in that case.

I bought our latest boat in July. A local marina had it listed for $9,995...we first looked at it in March, I kept going by every two to three weeks. In July we looked at it again, had it surveyed, I placed $5,000 cash on the owners desk and told him he could either take it or it was the last he would see of me...and away we went with our boat.

Also, keep an eye on the commercial real-estate market folks, it's about to do what the housing market did...we aren't near the end of the turn down yet. 'Course that's just my opinion.

 

[KeyWestSkipper]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

I bought our latest boat in July. A local marina had it listed for $9,995...we first looked at it in March, I kept going by every two to three weeks. In July we looked at it again, had it surveyed, I placed $5,000 cash on the owners desk and told him he could either take it or it was the last he would see of me...and away we went with our boat.

Also, keep an eye on the commercial real-estate market folks, it's about to do what the housing market did...we aren't near the end of the turn down yet. 'Course that's just my opinion.

Well done on the deal. Did the survey turn up anything interesting?

Commercial vacancies are approaching surreal levels around here.

 

[270win]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Well done on the deal. Did the survey turn up anything interesting?

Commercial vacancies are approaching surreal levels around here.

Well, the hull was deemed solid. That was my main concern.

The engine is sound but has seen better days, lots of salt time prior to the move to Atlanta. But the manifolds and risers are brand new. The carb was giving all kinds of problems and the mechanic for the marina couldn't get it to idle when warm...I used that BIG TIME in the negotiations. There was a stuck float. Used it the rest of the summer to shake it down and make a list for refit....no further mechanical problems so far.

Yeah, and the Florida housing market led the way in the big housing crash too. I keep hearing people say the turn around is near, but most of my banking buddies are hunkering down for another lousy year. We'll see...

I hope I'm wrong...

 

[pokman]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

My two cents on used boat market. I am currently looking for my first boat. I have been looking for about 3months, I have never owned but grew up with boats so I have a decent knowledge on prices. Anyway here in WI I have to agree everyone asks way over NADA price not just dealers but private parties. Every boat I seriously have looked at I have printed out to show owner/dealer. Usually the owner says something like "that doesn't truly show condition of boat". I know the NADA isn't the end all of pricing but for the price range I am looking at (5-6k bowrider) most boats are priced 2-2500k over NADA. Kind of frustrating because EVERY boat I look at the add always says "low hours great condition" . Oh well I will keep looking till I find the right one

 

[270win]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Personally, I would go driving around to the local marinas looking for boats. If you're paying cash you can get a smokin' deal right now...but I think it takes patience. Once the dealer or owner knows the market stinks, and they know that you, someone who has cash, knows the market stinks, it will lead to a good purchase.

I would also advise a survey on any boat prior to purchase. They have saved me lots of money in the past...

 

[180Fisherman]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

The market is the market. If, as you say, all of the boats out there are priced out of market, then perhaps it is your expectations that are out of market. The original poster said he buys boats to then sell for a profit. How in the world do you pay a market price for a boat and then sell it for a profit? Obviously you would have to pay a below market price for that to work and obviously he is having trouble finding someone will to sell his boat at a below market price. If you find a boat that you like just buy it. In the grand scheme of life paying $11K for a boat with a $10K NADA value is no biggie. It's an extra $100 per year over the 10 years you'll get to enjoy the boat. Don't let another boatless season pass you by for that amount of money.

I just bought my 18' CC for $5,400. I found it on the boat trader. I went and saw it, I liked it and I bought it. Do I think it was it a great "deal"? No. Do I think it is a a great "value". ABSOLUTELY!!!. Where else can you buy endless hours of enjoyment for years to come for a paultry $5400. I had been looking for a boat for a while and I was tired of it. I was ready to get out on the water and I wasn't willing to wait any longer just for another 10% of the purchase price.

 

[pokman]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

180 Fisherman,

I for sure agree with you on paying a little more, I would pay a little more for a boat If it was my perfect boat in a second. I am like you just starting to get frustrated even though I have plenty of time, I really am not looking for a "winter deal" because water will be open in 21/2 months anyway but most of these prices just seem very inflated. Any boat I do get will for sure get a full survey, compression test etc... And test drive.

 

[180Fisherman]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

180 Fisherman,

Any boat I do get will for sure get a full survey, compression test etc... And test drive.

While I certainly can't argue against doing all of this I didn't do any of it except the seatrial. It just didn't didn't seem worth the money to me. The boat I bought was 10 years old and was obviously lightly used and the motor ran perfectly during the seatrial. I just wasn't that overly concerned about having to throw a few extra bucks at a $5K boat if it became necessary. I have however owned boats previously to this one so I trusted my eyes and ears when looking things over. If you have little to no prior experience with the little things that can and will go wrong with a boat then having an independant and knowledgeable set of eyes look things over is good piece of mind.

 

[270win]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

I have a friend who bought a 2 year old Crownline about 2 years ago. It was about a 20' bowrider...low hours and looked VERY nice. Unfortunately it had been sunk on the trailer...plug left in and it filled with rain water and sat that way. The entire hull had to be gutted and the transom replaced too....there was an impressive amount of damage done to that boat and it was almost new.

I hear what you're saying, but even very experienced boaters can get burned.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Good to see that things are going strong in some parts of the world. Here in the FORT MYERS/ CAPE CORAL area, things are in the toilet. Forclousers everywhere, new vacant strip malls and empty office buildings. Only thing keeping things going is the retiries money. There children and grandchildren are living off them, running the old folks into the ground.
DINGBAT, dont think you are going to find to many off shore fishing boat in PHOENIX for sale or not for sale. Same for ferraries or porsches in JOHNSTOWN. Friend around TAMPA has been waiting for 2 years now for the repo man to come take his houseboat. Banks dont want the boats, they have enough on their hands.
Have to wonder about buying a boat and reselling it at a profit. Lots of houses around here where people tried that. Reminds me of all the people I have known that always came back from RENO or ATLANTIC CITY, always winners. Guess I am the only one that has bad luck. FRED

 

[northernmerc]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Sorry to hear that things are still that bad in most parts of the US. To turn things around, maybe someone needs to figure out a way to bring jobs back from Mexico and Asia. Without that, it could be a long, slow slide down.

From what we hear, central Canada (Ontario, Quebec, etc) is hurting too. They depend on manufacturing. But here in western Canada, we have a resource based economy. We haven't noticed much - if any -decline in prices. The boat market remains strong; the prices you guys quote seem ridiculously low. Housing prices went down a little and then rebounded to former levels. Car and truck prices are a lot higher than a year or two ago, and big trucks and SUVs are hot again.

 

[270win]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Sorry to hear that things are still that bad in most parts of the US. Before things will turn around, maybe you need to figure out a way to bring jobs back from Mexico and Asia. Without that, it could be a long, slow slide down.

Here in western Canada, we have a resource based economy. We haven't noticed much - if any -decline in prices. The boat market remains strong; the prices you guys quote seem ridiculously low. Housing prices went down and little and then rebounded to former levels. Car and truck prices are a lot higher than a year or two ago.

The jobs going out of the country is a small part of the problem. The real problem is that greedy people (the banks) were lending money to broke people (people with zero capital but decent credit) and now the broke people don't have the money to pay the greedy people back. A few years ago, one of my friend's employees had his truck repossessed...two months later he goes out and buys a new truck...and GM financed him!!!

Not sure I buy that the car market is strong in Canada...if it were they would be buying more rust free southern muscle cars. The northeastern US and Canada is where many of our cars went that we sold on eBay. That has dried up too.

If it's a good market you need to buy some cars from me and make some money flipping them...

 

[MTribe08]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

And then there's the issue of photos. Why is it so hard, in 2010, to take and post a few decent photos of a boat? Why do most ads have poor or otherwise insufficient photos at best? That amazes me. Digital cameras are dirt cheap and easy to use. Ultimately,though, I stopped asking for better pictures and took them for the red flags they are. Instead poor photos are to me evidence of a guy with no pride in his boat, a guy who couldn't be troubled to get his hands dirty every weekend keeping her clean and well-maintained.

I agree there is some truth in that statement..but it can also work to the savy buyers favor. In a thread i put up recently I spoke about how I helped my next door neighbor find a boat for his family. I came across a boat that had a AWFUL add on craigslist. Very vague..no pictures...need to sell ASAP ect.. Price was right..so I had him send some pictures. Looked decent..so we went to look. Needed a new Fuel Pump and an oil change..but other than that it was diamond in the rough..Solid deck, great Gel Coat..solid Trailer..4.3L Merc...the whole nine yards...1991 Monterey 19' bowrider...

Nada Average retail was $2,300 without the trailer.
Bought the boat and trailer for $1,900

 

[northernmerc]

Re: Used boat market is sucking wind.

Not sure I buy that the car market is strong in Canada...if it were they would be buying more rust free southern muscle cars. The northeastern US and Canada is where many of our cars went that we sold on eBay. That has dried up too.

If it's a good market you need to buy some cars from me and make some money flipping them...

One can only use so many muscle cars - unless it's a must have model like a 1st generation Vette or a '67 Chevelle SS convertible. The Canadian dollar is again almost at par with the US dollar. If and when it again goes above the US dollar, interest probably will return in buying cars from the US. I wonder how Barrett Jackson will do this year? That will tell us something about the economy.

Up here, interest in buying new pickups and SUVs was real low a year or two ago with the high fuel prices. Now that fuel is down, vehicles are up in price a lot. Three year old diesel pickups I'm looking at are going for $35,000 or so.