when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

lime4x4

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,040
My original stringers were covered with 5/16 to 1/2 inch thick of fiberglass around my stringers. What type of material is good for this? I'm using epoxy. I have 1708 biaxle cloth with mat. But it would take ALOT of 1708 to get this thickness i need.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,095
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Ayuh,... Woven Roving,..?? Big strong build up, but likes to be pretty Flat...
 

tallcanadian

Captain
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
3,250
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Do you really need that thickness? Perhaps wrap them with cloth or mat the layer the top of your stringer with either woven roving, or mat until you get the thickness you require.
 

lime4x4

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,040
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

That is what was there when i tore out the stringers. I have enough adjustment in my motor mounts to make up the difference. Just don't know what the reason was for making the fiberglass thick there
 

tallcanadian

Captain
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
3,250
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Maybe for strength. Sounds like you have an sterndrive?
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

They may have been that thick near the motor mounts, but typically they're about half that on the rest of the stringer. It also depends on what type of glass it was, if it was just mat or chop then they just built it up thick to gain at least some strength.

No mat is needed with epoxy, stick with woven or stitched products.
 

lime4x4

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,040
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

The boat is a a sterndrive. In the pic below the stringers go were the black lines are. The fiberglass was extremly thick around the stringers, on the top of the stringers and the bilge belly.

img_7959.resized.jpg
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Typically you don't need to match the thickness of the original glass if you're replacing chopped mat or roving with biaxial, you just match the number of layers.

The strength of sprayed mat comes from thickness, the strength of biax glass comes from the quality of fabric and orientation of the fibers.

If you don't know how many layers were there or it was all sprayed glass, then just use the standard layup for 20-ish foot boats being repaired... 2 layers of 17 oz. glass or 3 of 12 oz, no mat required for epoxy.

Personally I've gotten away with 3 layers of 12 oz tabbing and one 8 oz cloth layer to cover the whole stringer and protect it, but your stringers may not be built that way.

If you really want to build the thickness up, don't use the expensive biax, just use mat and woven roving. Alternate mat, roving, mat, roving etc until you get it as thick as you want. The biax will still be stronger, though, especially if you alternate the direction the fibers run.

Erik
 

F14CRAZY

Ensign
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
945
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

I personally used 3 layers of 18 oz roving to get the 3/16'' factory thickness. I'm not too familiar with it but it sounds like you don't quite need to put that much back since biax is indeed stronger than roving
 

lime4x4

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
1,040
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

it mainly looked like chopped glass and resin. I'm planning on laying atleast 3 layers of 1708. I think it will be plenty strong
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Yeah, 3 layers will be just fine.

Again, if you're using epoxy you can skip the mat (DB1700, not 1708). Doing so will save a good 40% of the resin you use, which can add up.

I just did a transom with 3 layers of DB1700, took about 3 gallons of epoxy.

Erik
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

hello m8s..

erm.. just not to get confufluxed..you must use mat between layers of any layers of fiberglass cloth. Most come with a mat backed..fine..

you can not lay up un matted cloth on cloth without mat (chopped strand). and have it structural m8s. I dont care what resin your working with. just not a good format for layups.

as far as build up..I would like to hear some "pros" say what 3 layers of 17 oz 1708 biax equates to after cure... with diff resins..

If your going over your stringers..then correct on 5/16 and up for layups.. ( you didnt say what oz that 1708 was..but I presume 17 oz. ) .. Woving would build up faster.. but harder to work with...for some.. ;)

one suggestion...Tape all your cut edges when you cut..tape them again before you wet out..pull the tape After you place.. or your 08 is gonna move in every direction that you dont want it to..

YD.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

hello m8s..

erm.. just not to get confufluxed..you must use mat between layers of any layers of fiberglass cloth. Most come with a mat backed..fine..

you can not lay up un matted cloth on cloth without mat (chopped strand). and have it structural m8s. I dont care what resin your working with. just not a good format for layups.

Sorry, this is just plain wrong. Regardless of your prior experience, you might want to do some research into epoxy and (the lack of) mat. I can give you the names of some good books on the subject if you like. With epoxy you don't need mat, period. Full stop.

as far as build up..I would like to hear some "pros" say what 3 layers of 17 oz 1708 biax equates to after cure... with diff resins..

If your going over your stringers..then correct on 5/16 and up for layups.. ( you didnt say what oz that 1708 was..but I presume 17 oz. ) .. Woving would build up faster.. but harder to work with...for some.. ;)

one suggestion...Tape all your cut edges when you cut..tape them again before you wet out..pull the tape After you place.. or your 08 is gonna move in every direction that you dont want it to..
YD.

No, it won't. That's the nice thing about biaxial cloth.. it's stitched together with a nylon thread, not woven. That means the stitching holds the warp and weft in place and it won't fray, run, or stretch much when it's cut. It's even possible to cut "tape" out of biaxial 2 inches wide and have the fabric stay usable without taping, gluing or otherwise holding the edges in place.

FYI, DB1708 is Dual Bias 17 oz/sq yard biaxial fabric with 3/4 oz per sq. yard mat stitched together. It includes mat so it can be used with poly resin, where mat is needed. DB1700 is Dual Bias 17 oz biaxial without mat, but which is still stitched together to hold its shape. You use DB1700 with epoxy, which doesn't need mat due to its superior properties as a glue over poly.

As a side effect of not being woven together, biaxial (or triaxial, or monoaxial stitched fabric) does not kink the individial fibers.. they lie straight through the laminate, therefore being stronger than the same weight of woven cloth, and additionally can be arranged to lie in the direction force is most likely to be applied.

Erik
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
5,581
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Hello again..

Erik.. Im not mistaken..yes please reply with your sources, books whatever that says you dont need a bondply between uni/bi/or try strand glass. ( no prives please ).

I stand by myself in saying anyone buying 1708 from any glass dealer will experiance major streatching in the material with which way its cut...

one way does not move much..the other...way..WAY movement.. use tape criss cross on larger pieces..

Trust me.. ive been doing this for some time now..

YD.
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

Hello again..



Trust me.. ive been doing this for some time now..

YD.

Sorry, but it looks like you've been doing it wrong for some time now.

I'll dig up and post some sources tomorrow.

Erik
 

cheesegrits

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
77
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

I agree with erik. The only time you need to use 1708 is when the substrate is not level.The mat layer only gives thickness and does very little for strength. I have been using biax 45/45 and do not have any stretching problems like I used to when wetting out. Just be careful with which cloth you do get because some will not work with epoxy! Some are designed to only work with poly. When you need to add thickness mat is fine but you use much more resin as it soaks it up like a sponge and doesn't add much torsional strength.
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: when using epoxy what is the best way to buildup?

If working with continual nonstop layers I've put cloth on cloth on cloth ok
but if stopping between layups I hit it with a block to knock down sharp points and start with matt again, cloth will not lay flat unless the previous layers are still wet. But that was with poly.

Cheaper untreated cloth feels like cheap polyester fabric, pull it across your palm and it catches on the skin, higher quality cloth has a smooth feel to it like satin.

Just found this,

"When fiberglass cloth comes off the loom it is said to be ?in the greige? [pronounced grey]. In order to be compatible with resin systems it must first be heat cleaned to remove oils and sizing needed for weaving and then treated in a chemical bath, called ?finishing.? Finishing formulations are proprietary recipes that enhance bonding with the type of resin to be used. One of the earliest fomulations that is still in use is called Volan, which employs compounds of chromium. We do not recommend the use of Volan finishes because of the chromium content. Chromium is a toxic heavy metal that is considered a strategic material by the military and much of it is imported from Africa. Potential problems are evident! It also imparts a green cast to the fiberglass and the resulting laminate is generally rather grey and dirty looking. Silane finishes produce a clearer laminate and avoid the chrome problems.

Our preferred silane finish from BGF is called 497A. It was developed for critical aerospace applications and is compatible with epoxy, vinylester, and polyester resins. We occasionally have fabrics with 627 finish, also a general-purpose silane. Our fabrics that are made by Hexcel-Schwebel have a CS-767 finish, which we believe to be comparable to the BGF finishes. Very occasionally we will have some material that is finished specifically for one resin system, usually epoxy. In those instances we are careful to assure that a potential buyer is using the correct resin before making a sale.

Fiberglass finishes are degraded by environmental conditions such as moisture or even humidity and they deteriorate to some degree just with time. The 497A finish has especially good longevity, which is one of the reasons we prefer it. While deterioration begins as soon as finishing is completed, there is no significant loss of physical properties over the first year or two, provided the fabric has been wrapped in plastic and protected from high heat and humidity. I would be careful about using fiberglass more than three years old and would probably not use it after five years for any critical application without running some tests first."

Hehehe, my glass is well over 10 yrs old. Works for me.!
 
Top