How about that president of Poland?

[qbynewbie]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

GREAT THREAD GUYS.

I've been "toying" with the idea of getting a pilot's license.

Listening to you "pro's" is great fun.

Doesn't matter if your a pilot or a passenger, flying in a airplane
is just plane fascinating.

IMHO, this poor pilot was pressured into doing something against
his good judgement due his "dignataries" on board.

I think you're probably right.

As far as "pro's" go, I think a couple of the guys in this thread are true pros, with tons of experience. I'm just a poor private pilot who started dreaming about flying planes when he was five years old and, nearly fifty years later, decided that the time had come to make it happen.

When I take friends or family up for the first time, they're amazed at the view. They've all been on lots of commercial flights but in a small airplane, you're often much, much lower. I like doing scenic flights anywhere from 1000' to 3000' above the ground. At those altitudes, you can really see a lot.

My sister and brother-in-law have lived in their house in the country for 25 years. When I first took my BIL up, we were in the air for not more than 5 minutes when he turned to me in astonishment and said "I had no idea how many quarries there were so close to my house!".

It's easy to take a "test-drive" -- just go to any small airport where they offer flight lessons. They'll almost always have a "discovery flight" option that will generally give you about 30 minutes of flight time. And, believe it or not, you'll probably do the actual take off on that very first flight.

 

[qbynewbie]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

I've been "toying" with the idea of getting a pilot's license.

If you you were around here, I'd definitely take you up for a ride. And, if you really are serious, there's a pilots forum that you should join. You might very well find someone in your neighborhood who is a pilot who would be happy to have you join him on occasion. Pilots (like boaters) are very friendly people. They kind of have to be, since only 3 out of every 10,000 people know how to fly a plane. If they weren't friendly to each other, they'd have almost nobody to talk to!

 

[Philip_G]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

e, since only 3 out of every 10,000 people know how to fly a plane.

and only 15,000 controllers, of those 15,000 I wonder how many can fly

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

As long as you have an operational reason, sure

Why would I inform a controller that I was unable to comply, if I didn't have an operational reason? I know that there are a few idiots flying airplanes, but they tend to be low time, private pilots, for the most part. Those who hold higher level certificates, tend to be more responsible.

In fact, I'll take it a step further. The term "operational" is not a particularly restrictive description. I can think of all sorts of "operational reasons" why I might wish that a controller would make my life easier. That doesn't give me the leeway to be a PITA and give him/her a hard time and/or ignore an instruction. On the other hand, if that controller tells me to do something that my aircraft isn't capable of doing, or if he/she asks me to do something that is clearly dangerous. I'm not going to do it and I'm not going to fight about it.

For example, if you try to give me a 90 degree intercept, when I am solid IFR and that intercept will put me a 1/2 mile outside of the outer marker, I won't do it. What I will do, is tell you that I need vectors for a normal intercept and I'll accept the longer routing to accomplish that. If you try to violate me, we'll have a little chit chat with someone miles above your pay grade and when we do it, we'll dig out "the books." Of course, you will chuckle and say, "that would never happen," but I have had it happen.

Conversely, if I am tooling along in my Cessna 310 on the approach and have not yet reached a step down, but you have a "72" already at the lower altitude and behind me, I'll hold my altitude at your request, so that Mr. Airline Driver can over-take me and land first. I'll do that as long as I can maintain enough separation and/or altitude to stay out of his wake turbulence. Been there and done that one too. Actualy, it was kind of cool to watch the 727 pass 1,000 feet underneath me, strobes popping in the dark clouds.

Controllers and pilots have a bad habit of not seeing one another's world, but as a young controller, there is one thing that you must never forget - if you screw up, you might get disciplined or even fired. If I screw up, I might get dead.

Now, just to lighten things up a bit, here's one for you

"Bonanza 123 yankee charlie, very nice landing, contact ground immediately please."

"Yankee charlie, thanks! WILCO."

"Ground, Bonanza 123 yankee charlie, taxi to Atlantic Aviation."

"Yankee charlie, Ground, taxi to Atlantic."

"BTW, yankee charlie, you are already on the taxiway, the runway is 100 yards to your right."

Silence.


(Yes, this actually happened. No, I wasn't the pilot. The call sign has been changed to protect the stupid.)



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[qbynewbie]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

Oops!

And, just for the record, I'm just a private pilot but I do try to be responsible. There may be times when my CFII would dispute that, I suppose, but I do try.

 

[Philip_G]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

Controllers and pilots have a bad habit of not seeing one another's world

the two worlds are further apart than you can fathom.

and what you probably don't know is I hold a CMEL CFI and CFII.

Go to a center or a tracon for a tour and plug in awhile, they'll let you with prior coordination. I'd skip a VFR tower unless it's an up/down.

 

[aspeck]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

I also love this thread discussion. About 20 years ago I went for my pilots license. Enjoyed it tremendously. Got my solo certification of a 190 and was about to do the cross-country and written test when I was practicing my touch and goes solo. Controller announced unexpected wind gusts of over 40 knots and told me to divert to then next closest airport. However, I did not have enough fuel to comfortably make that trip, I had just done my last TnG for that reason.

I declared my situation to the controller and was given clearance to do whatever I felt I needed to do. Brought the plane down sideways and kicker her out at the end. There were cheers for the job I did by the terminal staff and my instructor. To me it seemed routine.

On the way home I started shaking, realizing the dangerousness of what I had just encountered and that I did so well because I was flying once or twice a week. I had to wonder how often I would have the time and resources to fly AFTER I got my certification. I did not want to put my life in danger or the lives of my passengers because I did not practice enough. That was the last time I flew solo. I still try to get up with pilot friends every now and then to wet the appetite for flying, but the need to do it myself is just not there anymore. I do get upset with some private pilots I know that go up about once every 6 months and think they are the greatest pilots on the face of the earth. I am sure they are ones that give the controllers a rough time.

 

[skysurfer2010]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

the two worlds are further apart than you can fathom.

and what you probably don't know is I hold a CMEL CFI and CFII.

Go to a center or a tracon for a tour and plug in awhile, they'll let you with prior coordination. I'd skip a VFR tower unless it's an up/down.

I've visited a tracon and tower before when I was in college. It's kind of like connect the dots in the dark.

And I think you may have mentioned one or eight times that you have your ratings. Why did you stop if you got all the way up to your CFII? Did you decide to become a controller before or after you got your ratings?

 

[Philip_G]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

I've visited a tracon and tower before when I was in college. It's kind of like connect the dots in the dark.

And I think you may have mentioned one or eight times that you have your ratings. Why did you stop if you got all the way up to your CFII? Did you decide to become a controller before or after you got your ratings?

sorry, pilots tend to "talk down" to non pilots. another pet peeve, of many

Long after, I believe my II ride was sometime around jan of 03 and I've only been here a little while.

Steady work, decent pay, retirement and benefits, home every night? Yes please. Contrary to public opinion, no stress. I leave work at work

Come to think of it I'm tired of talking about work, back to talking about boats, you guys have fun.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

the two worlds are further apart than you can fathom.

and what you probably don't know is I hold a CMEL CFI and CFII.

Go to a center or a tracon for a tour and plug in awhile, they'll let you with prior coordination. I'd skip a VFR tower unless it's an up/down.

No, the worlds are not further apart than I can fathom. I made my living in aviation for about 20 years. When I was doing it for a living, I probably knew more controllers and FAA officials than you do now - including some of the ones in DC. I also knew a former Chief Counsel of the FAA, who was working for the law firm of Hogan & Hartson, when my organization hired him. That law firm probably will not ring a bell - here's a hint: Its the firm that the current Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, was once a partner in.

I have also been in TRACONS that service some of the most dense airspace on the planet, many times. Don't need to "plug in," either. When you spend many years both flying airplanes and managing aviation related ground facilties, you tend to spend many thousands of hours both listening to and communicating on aviation frequencies.

I also knew senior officials from just about every aviation related "alphabet group" that you can think of. That's what happens when you are a senior manager in an aviation business. Especially if that business is one recognised by all of them.

What you do for a living requires a personality that is somewhat aggressive. You have to be able to "juggle a lot of balls at the same time" and you have to be decisive. I understand this. I also have an appreciation for the job and spent the vast majority of my aviation career, working with ATC in a cooperative and satisfying manner. That said, it is the aggresiveness that some controllers display, particularly when it is displayed inappropriately, that makes pilots uptight.

So, you have a commercial, multi and a "double i." That's great and I always liked controllers that had some understanding of what goes on in the cockpit. Take the knowledge and use it, along with a bit less attitude about pilots and you'll go far. Seriously, don't get too cranked up about it all, because you will burn out if you do - this is something else that I saw many times among controllers.



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[Philip_G]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-K

 

[qbynewbie]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

In all honesty, I think the system works best when controllers and pilots both remember that the person on the other end of the frequency is probably a pretty decent guy or gal who may be having a good day or a bad day but deserves the benefit of the doubt most of the time. A little courtesy and understanding and occasionally putting yourself in the other guy's shoes can go a long way.

Of course, I guess that's true about a lot of things.

 

[skysurfer2010]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

In all honesty, I think the system works best when controllers and pilots both remember that the person on the other end of the frequency is probably a pretty decent guy or gal who may be having a good day or a bad day but deserves the benefit of the doubt most of the time. A little courtesy and understanding and occasionally putting yourself in the other guy's shoes can go a long way.

Of course, I guess that's true about a lot of things.

Agreed. And in the end, acting like a professional on both ends goes a long way.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

In all honesty, I think the system works best when controllers and pilots both remember that the person on the other end of the frequency is probably a pretty decent guy or gal who may be having a good day or a bad day but deserves the benefit of the doubt most of the time. A little courtesy and understanding and occasionally putting yourself in the other guy's shoes can go a long way.

Of course, I guess that's true about a lot of things.

I agree. Really, what it boils down to, is having an appreciation of what the other person is dealing with at any given point in time. This is especially true when you are a pilot, who is being worked by a controller in very dense airspace. That person engages in a choreography of sorts and if you aren't ready to do what he/she needs, you screw the flow of things up.

Pilots refer to "being ahead of the airplane." Basically what that means, is that you are thinking about what you will need to do anywhere from a few seconds ahead of yourself, to many minutes ahead. Good, cooperative pilots are also listening to what is going on over the radio. During the enroute portion of flight, this isn't much of an issue, but during the departure and arrival phases, it can be. Such pilots form a mental picture of what is happening, who is where, what the controller is doing with those aircraft and what might of expected or needed to make it all work.

I've spoken largely from a pilot's point of view, but its a two way street. In the case of the accident that we are discussing, a controller apparently made it clear to the pilot, that conditions would not permit a successful instrument approach and landing. The pilot refused to take the advice of someone that he should have paid attention to and died as a result. Its bad enought that he managed to kill himslef, but he also killed 93 other people, who probably had no idea how much danger he was putting them in.

I guess the moral to the story is, sometimes a pilot must assume his/her role as the final authority for the safety of the aircraft and sometimes he/she needs to shut up and listen to what ATC is saying and/or asking.



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[qbynewbie]

Re: How about that president of Poland?

I really like that last paragraph. I may steal that from you for use at some appropriate time in the future.