Need some boater advice...*Update*

[USCG Flyer]

Ok, so at the end of last season, I blew the lower unit on the 1999 Force 120 that is mounted on my 1802 Trophy Walkaround Cuddy. So I finally got around to getting it in the shop after returning from a deployment and am now presented with a choice.
The shop gave me two options. First, was to put a used lower on the Force. I never really had any huge problems with the motor, but I know Force doesn't have the best reputation in the industry. The fix would cost about $1000.
The second option was for them to sell me a 2004 or 2005 4 stroke. They had a couple, I recall the two I liked best, one being a Johnson 140 and the other being a Suzuki 150 I think. This was going to set me back about $2500-$2700, ready to drop in the water.
I like the idea of the 4 stroke, no mixing oil, quiet operation, from what I hear, less maint? I also can't stand dumping money into things I need to keep fixing. SO, what say you fine folks? Dump the force and get one of the four strokes for $1500 more than fixing the old one? Save the money and Keep the Force? Would this help the resale value? Thanks for any ideas!

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Dump the force. You will be much happier and better off down the road........ it is worth it. Force has a poor reputation and you will come out ahead.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Dump the Force. Spending a fistful of money to fix it isn't a wise move. They're practically worthless in the marketplace. Bayliners came equipped with them because Bayliner owned Force. It's old Chrysler outboard technology that they bought cheap when Chrysler left the outboard market in the late 70's.

4-strokes have good and bad points, but they are in fact more maintenance-intensive than 2-strokes. Definitely quieter, tho.

The Johnson 140 is NOT a 4-stroke, but would be a very good 2-stroke choice if it's in good shape. Modern 2-strokes all have automatic oil injection- no mixing by hand.

Suzuki 4-strokes have a very good rep, but you should make sure there's service readily available. They don't have as many dealers as some of the other makes.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Dump the Force !!!!!
Get the best possible warranty you can from them on the new motor.
Enjoy.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Get the best possible warranty you can from them on the new motor.
Enjoy.

I'm with Ken. Don't obsess too much over the 2-stroke vs 4-stroke motor question unless you're already leaning in one direction.

Your 2 examples are both good motors and will be fairly painless to own. Current condition, warranty and service availability are the keys here.

Last word of advice is to just make sure you aren't exceeding the Trophy's max horsepaower rating.

Good luck!

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Thanks for the advice folks. This was the way I was leaning. It seems that the Force parts are out there are getting steep as well. Even though it is the last that was bulit by Merc, it appears they never really continued replacement parts for them.
As for the warranty I'm not sure, since neither is a new engine, they were 2004 or 05 models, used but low hours and seem in great shape. I have a few dealers around for both brands, so the service should be easy. The shop I would be getting it from is a Suzuki dealer.

JoLin: As for the Johnson, the dealer told me it was the same as the Suzuki, and my research seems to indicate that is true. Johnsons 4 strokes were built by Suzuki. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a 150HP?

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Nope, I was wrong on that. Sorry- I didn't know Johnson sold 4-strokes except for the little motors. The Johnson is a 140, though. If it was made by Suzuki, might just have different injection or ignition tuning.

As for the "Mercury" Force motors, at some point Merc bought Bayliner, and the Force line came with the sale. Believe they were never a Mercury design, just the same old Chrysler stuff.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

OK, I'll take the other side of the coin.

My friend owns a Force 120 and as a mater of fact its a 1999 with the Merc lower unit. Its a fine engine and parts have been no problem, though it has needed very few.

My first question would be why did you "blow the lower unit"? Was it a problem with the motor or was it poor maintenance or did you hit a reef?

$1000 to repair an otherwise good motor is hard to take, but OMG man spend $2500 on a used (or maybe used up) 5 or 6 year old motor? Not my cup of tea.

I used to think that a 4-stroke was the only way to go, but then I heard about all the maintenance requirements (what you heard was wrong). Changing oil is a snap, but I don't have the tools or the knowledge to adjust valves, etc. I'l stick with a 2-stroke thank you.

So, the Johnson is a 2-stroke so I would certainly be in favor of that switch. Nevertheless, it's still an unknown and a $1500 upcharge. How was it maintained and what will go wrong with it?

If you are certain that the force only needs a lower unit and you know the mechanic, that's a better choice.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Nope, I was wrong on that. Sorry- I didn't know Johnson sold 4-strokes except for the little motors. The Johnson is a 140, though. If it was made by Suzuki, might just have different injection or ignition tuning.

As for the "Mercury" Force motors, at some point Merc bought Bayliner, and the Force line came with the sale. Believe they were never a Mercury design, just the same old Chrysler stuff.

When Merc bought US Marine (formerly Chrysler) they kept the powerheads the same but replaced all the lower units with Merc hardware. Force is not junk, its just old fashioned.

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

OK, I'll take the other side of the coin.

My friend owns a Force 120 and as a mater of fact its a 1999 with the Merc lower unit. Its a fine engine and parts have been no problem, though it has needed very few.

My first question would be why did you "blow the lower unit"? Was it a problem with the motor or was it poor maintenance or did you hit a reef?

During my ownership, it was maintained. Hell, only had it about a year to this point. It's been out maybe ten times after I bought it. I figure I got a good four months usage before it broke. The boat I have no complaints about though. Right after I bought it, I did change the lower unit oil, changed the plugs, greased...all the things the book said to do. When I bought it, I did notice a very faint knock in forward gear, I thought it was from the exhaust. I was told it exited the prop. Well, I guess I should have checked it better, earlier, whatever, but we've all made boat mistakes , right?
When it did go on me, I was able to put the boat in reverse and get in back to the dock...try going 3/4 mile in reverse sometime...I'm sure it looked very funny from shore.

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

The only thing that ever happened to the lower was a crab pot tangle that didn't have a bouy on it. It didn't spin the prop or anything, so I didn't think much of it. That was two days before it went bang...and it was a LOUD bang!

 

[mike343]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Make sure you compare the weight of the Force and the new motor. Four strokers tend to be a lot heavier and may cause balance problems.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

When Merc bought US Marine (formerly Chrysler) they kept the powerheads the same but replaced all the lower units with Merc hardware. Force is not junk, its just old fashioned.

If it was running well and the question was if he should replace it anyway, I'd advise him to keep it. But it's broken. It needs a repair that'll cost at least as much as the motor is worth. An owner of an old Force in good condition might love it, but nobody can logically argue that it's a good or desirable motor in 2010.

Unless he's gonna row the thing he has to do one or the other; if the repair will cost $1K and a nice used 4-stroke will cost $2.5K, then the cost differential is $1500. For that he gets a nice running, modern motor.

In the end I see it as an opportunity to upgrade to something that will pay for itself if he decides to sell the boat, as well as making the package easier to sell.

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

If it was running well and the question was if he should replace it anyway, I'd advise him to keep it. But it's broken. It needs a repair that'll cost at least as much as the motor is worth. An owner of an old Force in good condition might love it, but nobody can logically argue that it's a good or desirable motor in 2010.

Unless he's gonna row the thing he has to do one or the other; if the repair will cost $1K and a nice used 4-stroke will cost $2.5K, then the cost differential is $1500. For that he gets a nice running, modern motor.

In the end I see it as an opportunity to upgrade to something that will pay for itself if he decides to sell the boat, as well as making the package easier to sell.

Thanks again John, all fine points. I mean what would that motor even be worth? $750-$800? At this point it almost seems like a no Brainer. Then we also have the resale value, and as I've found, 2/3 the value seems to be in the motor.

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Make sure you compare the weight of the Force and the new motor. Four strokers tend to be a lot heavier and may cause balance problems.

In regards to this, how would I know what is an acceptable weight difference? I would hope that this is something the dealer would know. Are we talking 50 pounds? 100? I would think just by looking at specs, that the motors are about 100 lbs apart, is that too much?

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

The Suzuki weighs about 475 lbs and the Johnson weighs 425. If you were to replace the Force with a new Yamaha 150 or E-Tec 150 (both 2-stroke), you'd still be up around 425 lbs.

As long as the horsepower is within limits you'll be fine

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

The Suzuki weighs about 475 lbs and the Johnson weighs 425. If you were to replace the Force with a new Yamaha 150 or E-Tec 150 (both 2-stroke), you'd still be up around 425 lbs.

As long as the horsepower is within limits you'll be fine

The boat is rated for 150hp, so I'm guessing it will be fine. Since I was deployed most of last summer I just really want to get this thing in the water and actually use it!

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

Well, as everyone knows..Force is basically the renamed design of one of the worst engineering outfits in history...Chrysler Corporation (aka 'Mopar',etc)...and it doesn't get any worse.
BP

 

[cr2k]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

One thing to consider is the Johnson is if it has the VRO pump, Variable Ratio Oiling unit. This is a PLASTIC unit that controls your oil and fuel flow. It is housed inside your engine cowling, you know where the heat is.
I have seen many of them give it up and when that happens it always takes out the powerhead. If you like the Johnson pull the unit and mix.

I would opt for the zuki, as they are a good unit, but only as good as parts and service availability is.

You will notice that any other engine rated the same as your force will out perform it by a mile. They over rate the HP on them.

A good used Yamaha would be my first choice. Plus you could probably sell your force powerhead to help close the price gap.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Need some boater advice...

Re: Need some boater advice...

cr2k,

The Johnson is a 4-stroke. No oil injection.