E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

[Rscardina]

Was out on the water today (Buzzards Bay, Cape Cod) and all seemed ok. The engine started fine, but wouldn't idle in neutral. After I gave her time to warm up a bit things seemed a bit better but I could tell i needed to adjust the idle setting to keep the rpms up a bit more. Out of the water she starts and stay running in idle..so my assumption was that a little adjustment is all she needed. I was able to get the boat in gear by applying a bit more throttle and before she cut out I would put her in gear, throttle a bit and off she went.

After a few stops at various location we decided to call it a day and head back except...she wouldn't start or should I say she would kick over but immediately die. I checked my feul seperator and it looked good. The primer pumped solid, the motor had plenty of juice and cranked well..

After several attempts at keeping her running and getting no where I decide it was time to call the Sea Tow..500 dollars later and a new Sea Tow membership i am trying to figure out what happened.

Once home I tried again to get her running but no luck..

My boat has the VRO and i noticed some feul at the top of the VRO. Never having this setup before I dont know if this is normal as a relief or what have you. Also, I had a half tank of gas (45g capacity) so about 20 galons

To make a long story short here are my questions..it seems like feul delivery issue..but i'm not 100% sure..

1)What is the best way to test the feul pump?? It has wires on it but I am pretty sure its mechanical in nature with wires for the warning signal.

2) its my understanding the pump works on pulses from the crankcase. Is this correct? and does that mean I have to cranke the engine over to get the feul flowing in order to confirm operation?

3)Should this be the culprit is there a rebuild for these or is it replacement?

4) Lastly, is this the right place to start? should carbs be first or if there is an order of components to follow what is that?

PS..I have spark, compression is 125, 125, 125, 130, feul is fresh, seperator changed last week.

Thanks for the help!!

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

To test pump output unhook the pump to carbs hose and crank it into a container. Monitor the flow. Put the muffs on though to save the impeller.
If the fuel bulb stayed primed and the motor did not keep going when you pumped it I would doubt it is the pump. When was the last time the carbs were serviced ???
Not normal for fuel to be leaking out anywhere.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

I have not done the carbs other than flushing the bowls out. The primer bulb was rock hard and I couldnt pump it anyomre..

I figured with some cranks that the feul would be getting pulled in to some degree that the bulb would soften a tad but it didnt..

Since its a V4..I would have exxpected some ingnition and running even if one of the carbs got stuck..something like 3 cylinders running or something to that affect

Is it possible for all of the carbs to crap out at once?? I understand they could be gungked but all at once?? I didnt think so, which is why i went back further in thinking the pump first...maybe I should rethink it.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

when i get home I will check compression again to ensure nothing bad happened. and spark as well....after that i will look at the carbs to see if there are any signs of crud, gunk, debris or what have you.

Any other help or suggestions are welcome!

Thanks

 

[ezeke]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

To test a VRO pump, follow this link:
http://www.maxrules.com/graphics/vropics/VROflowchart.JPG

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

is the gearcase pressue tester simply a bulb with a guage on it?...I have one i used for testing gas lines and can retrofit a guage pretty easily.

Thanks

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

ezeke..the top of the pump has what appears to be a rubber plug of the sort and i did have some feul/oil residue i noticed.. I'm assuming this is not good..or not normal.

have you seen what I am describing before?

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..UPDATE

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..UPDATE

I started my troubleshooting this afternoon and here is what i found:

Spark = Good
Compression good 125-125-130-125
Feul seperator = replaced
float bowls flushed (no particles or water)
disconected fuel line at VRO and checked inline strainer. Looks good
Reconected hose and clamped tight, checked for leaks, found none

Observed:
tried starting engine with choke in, took several turn but eventually catches..runs for about 30 seconds and stalled out. checked primer ball and pumped a bit more...tried to start and as previous she cut out again.

at the next attempt i positioned myself closer to the primer and as she sounded as if she was going to cut out I squeezed and she kept running,,,i let go of the primer and she started to fade...so i kepy a tiny bit of pressure on and she kept going...

Here is the weird thing...she kept running after that and ran good with no hesitation...i held the bulb in my hand and could feel periodic pulses as it was feeding gas...she ran for 20 minutes solid...I shut her down, waited 5 minutes and started again..she fired within a half crank..kept purring for another 20 minutes, no hesitation, sputters or otherwise...I'm going to let her sit an hour and then try again..

Sooo...what the heck should I be looking for now?? Does the fact that I primed and she kept ging mean anything? pump? carbs?...

Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

Did we actually try this yet ???? as suggested ??
Pretty darned basic.
See earlier post. #2 actually.


"To test pump output unhook the pump to carbs hose and crank it into a container. Monitor the flow. Put the muffs on though to save the impeller."

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

Did we actually try this yet ???? as suggested ??
Pretty darned basic.
See earlier post. #2 actually.


"To test pump output unhook the pump to carbs hose and crank it into a container. Monitor the flow. Put the muffs on though to save the impeller."

hahaha...I actually did not!! I'll try that tomorrow and report back....sorry I was in the zone outside looking at everything...that's one thing i totally skipped (not on purpose).. but she did run and stayed running...

I also have a nice flow diagram from ezeke that has a nice test procedure for the vro..

What should i expect when I diconnect the hose and start cranking??.. solid flow..slow flow??...So I knwo what I should see..

Thanks!

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

Continuous strong spurts = pump O.K.
Strong spurts tapering off as you progress = pump starting to fail
trickles, drips or nothing = failed pump.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

Thanks for the input... i wish i didnt run out of sun light...or i'd be out there!!

Last questions for you... can this type of vro pump fail intermitently? As I undrstand it, she works on engine pulses...from the crank sace..so I should probably take that fitting off as well and see that its not clogged with carbon or anything before running my test..?

Why would or could it stay running after I assited it for as long as it did? I guess i would have expected it to fail even after i had it running..

Thanks Again

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

It would point to a possible failing diaphram. When mine went last time it came and went for a while till I checked the output. Left alone if this is the issue it will eventually only run if you keep priming the fuel bulb. If you are running on the muffs a lot of them will idle all day as it does not need anywhere near as much fuel at idle RPM. Open them up on the lake and that is when the issues start.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

What did you do with yours??.. rebuilt with a kt or just purchase new?

I'm asking becasue I believe i saw a kit for this pump and I think new pumps are not cheap..200+ dollars i think...

Thanks again! I'll test tomorrow and update..

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

Here's what I did, went to pre-mix. The link explains it. Not the only way to go but it worked for me and I am happy with what I have.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=265363&highlight=pre-mixer

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

thanks for the thread..i actually thought about doing that when i saw the prices for a new vro pump... i looked again...350+ dollars...wow.

ill test the pump tomorrow and see what she tells me..

should i go the pre-mix route...how do i go about picking the correct feul pump with the correct gallons output?? All i know is i have a 140 v4 and it can draw 14 gph at wot....what does that translate to in gph when picking a pump? and the pulse connection would be re-used i guess?

Thanks

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

thanks for the thread..i actually thought about doing that when i saw the prices for a new vro pump... i looked again...350+ dollars...wow.

ill test the pump tomorrow and see what she tells me..

should i go the pre-mix route...how do i go about picking the correct feul pump with the correct gallons output?? All i know is i have a 140 v4 and it can draw 14 gph at wot....what does that translate to in gph when picking a pump? and the pulse connection would be re-used i guess?

Thanks

I used a pump from a 1982 150HP. 3 hose connections. Fuel in, Fuel out and pulse.
All the V6 motors up to the 235hp used 2 of these pumps. I checked the output of mine and it is way over the 14 GPH mark. Don't know if I got lucky or not but I am extremely happy with my set up as are several other folk that I have converted around here.

 

[Rscardina]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???..

I read your thread and it appears to be an easy fix.. I'm not sure how I will go about this yet as I have to verify pump operation when i get home.

Just shooting ideas in my head...what do i do if the pump does coperate and deliver the required feul?.. I assume move next to the carbs or perform a complete VRO test as suggested by ezeke (few posts up)...

Another question.. since i run the engine on muffs to perform this test..would the added pressure from the water (when in the ocean) add more backpressure and labor the pump anymore or less?.. My thinking is maybe I shoud locate a barrel that is wide enough and do this submerged???

Thanks again for all of the help (ezeke included) you guys have been great!

 

[Rscardina]

E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???update..

E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???update..

When i got home i went through everything!! or at least everything i know how to do...

Here is what I did:

Started engine with muffs..seems to fire well and stayed running. ran a bit rough but overall seemed ok for my non proffesional ears..

What I did next:
Since my issues presented itself while I was on the water. I picked up a rubber tote large enough to submerge the LU.. this is where she started exhibiting similar problems as I did in the watre. It seemed like the cranking was less or a slight bit more labored..assumed the backpressure of the water covering the exhaust??...may be something to consider

I checked the VRo pump by diconnecting the feul line off the VRo and shot it into a container.. The feul initially shot strong, then medium then weak..(this is with one turn of the key) I then tried again and she did the same..initial pump strong, then intermediate then weak. Keep in mind I didnt hold the key on forever, just normal cranking time...

I put the hoses back on the vro, tightened everything down and fired her up. Seemed to have a little harder time starting in the water bath then with muffs. But she ran..and i got her to idle out at about 950rpm (i think my tach is not accurate)...

I noticed the bottom two carbs spilling oil back as well..I have heard an air leak in the feul side may make the vro pump more oil..but when running it was not smoking as initial strat produces..looked good actually

Something else I noted was the pee stream got warm..not hot..just warm.

So where do i go from here?...suggestions, recomendations?...

PS..what do the reeds do?

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???update..

Re: E140TXCDC..Feul Issues???update..

I checked the VRo pump by diconnecting the feul line off the VRo and shot it into a container.. The feul initially shot strong, then medium then weak..(this is with one turn of the key) I then tried again and she did the same..initial pump strong, then intermediate then weak. Keep in mind I didnt hold the key on forever, just normal cranking time...

I think you just may have found the problem here. Refer back to my earlier post on pump output. Post #11 in this thread.