2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

[Nandy]

This car broke the timing belt and all of the intake valves hit the pistons.

Previous post: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=395677

I had no compression on cylinders 1 and 3 where 2 and 4 were over 180. We are trying to do this as cheap as possible as we are kinda broke, so if it is not broke im not replacing it. My approach was get the gasket master cyl kit, get the 8 intake valves which are the only ones that hit the pistons. Then replace the valves, dont lap them, put the cyl head back, rocker arm shaft and cover, get it on time and check for compression again to make sure nothing else broke. The reason for not lapping the valves is to be able to return them if I dont do the job ($80.00 +)... I finished all of that today and when I tested it... Cyl 1 has 30 psi, cyl 2-3 has 60 and cyl 4 has 160+. This is not what I was hoping to see but I have a doubt now that maybe because I did not lap the valves is why im not getting good readings. I should be 180+. I put everything back using all the right torques. I skipped a new head gasket because they are expensive and I dont want to use the new one for a test. Same thing for the valve cover but that should not affect my compression.

Anyone with an educated opinion? If I need more work on that head other than lapping the valves I rather return the valves and get me a head from the junk yard. The are $60 with the warranty which was just $20 dollars cheaper than me replacing the valves in the cyl head I had. Since I wanted to replace the seal on either cyl head I went to keep the one the car had as it was really clean and had little wear.

Thanks.

 

[642mx]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Not only do the valves have to be lapped, the valve seats also need to be refinished to do the job correctly.

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Not only do the valves have to be lapped, the valve seats also need to be refinished to do the job correctly.

I have always lapped the valves against the seats so it goes hands by hand. The question is should I get enough good reading with valves that has not been lapped, not if I need to lap the valves/seats for a running car. I know if I expect to have the car running I would have to lap them.

 

[642mx]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

The question is should I get enough good reading with valves that has not been lapped, not if I need to lap the valves/seats for a running car. I know if I expect to have the car running I would have to lap them.

Your trying to half-*** the job to save a dime... its understandable, but here is the simple truth.... Throwing some valves in a head with worn seats won't give you anything... compression is going to blow right past the seat/face.

Lapping a valve in a worn seat is not coming anywhere close to doing the job correctly. You must have the seat refinished (2 or 3 angles is prefered) in order for the valve to be centered in the seat so it seals correctly. Lapping a valve just helps them wear in a bit faster... its not going to center the valve, its only going to shorten the valve life and cause more problems.

An Eclipse engine is not made by Briggs and Stratton. Take the head back off, take it to an auto machine shop, have them refinish the seats and re-install the valves.... then put it back together.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

I had no compression on cylinders 1 and 3 where 2 and 4 were over 180. We are trying to do this as cheap as possible as we are kinda broke, so if it is not broke im not replacing it. My approach was get the gasket master cyl kit, get the 8 intake valves which are the only ones that hit the pistons. Then replace the valves, dont lap them, put the cyl head back, rocker arm shaft and cover, get it on time and check for compression again to make sure nothing else broke. The reason for not lapping the valves is to be able to return them if I dont do the job ($80.00 +)... I finished all of that today and when I tested it... Cyl 1 has 30 psi, cyl 2-3 has 60 and cyl 4 has 160+. This is not what I was hoping to see but I have a doubt now that maybe because I did not lap the valves is why im not getting good readings. I should be 180+. I put everything back using all the right torques. I skipped a new head gasket because they are expensive and I dont want to use the new one for a test. Same thing for the valve cover but that should not affect my compression.

Anyone with an educated opinion? If I need more work on that head other than lapping the valves I rather return the valves and get me a head from the junk yard. The are $60 with the warranty which was just $20 dollars cheaper than me replacing the valves in the cyl head I had. Since I wanted to replace the seal on either cyl head I went to keep the one the car had as it was really clean and had little wear.

Thanks.

Been there, done that....years ago....never again.
The process that you used is not adequate and the results are predictable; you are lucky that you had as high compression as you got.
To do the job properly the valve seats need to be ground and the valves lapped in to the new seat surface.
You are also taking a gamble with the head gaskets...reusing them can result in a loss of compression....as you have found.

You are not likely to succeed in trying to reuse a cyl head gasket that has been r&r'd multiple times now if you go to the heads from a wrecking yard.

But ultimately you will have to decide for yourself how much of your own time you are prepared to invest in trying to cut corners that have been proven time and again to give a high risk of failure.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Your trying to half-*** the job to save a dime... its understandable, but here is the simple truth.... Throwing some valves in a head with worn seats won't give you anything... compression is going to blow right past the seat/face.

Lapping a valve in a worn seat is not coming anywhere close to doing the job correctly. You must have the seat refinished (2 or 3 angles is prefered) in order for the valve to be centered in the seat so it seals correctly. Lapping a valve just helps them wear in a bit faster... its not going to center the valve, its only going to shorten the valve life and cause more problems.

An Eclipse engine is not made by Briggs and Stratton. Take the head back off, take it to an auto machine shop, have them refinish the seats and re-install the valves.... then put it back together.

^^^^^
wasted my time posting....that says it all.

Nandy, I hope you don't think we are dumping on you, just trying to save you some time and grief....honest.

 

[642mx]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

^^^^^
wasted my time posting....that says it all.

hahaha I beat you by one minute!

Nandy, I hope you don't think we are dumping on you, just trying to save you some time and grief....honest.

+1 Tim is right, we are not trying to poke fun or dump on ya, Nandy. Some of us have "been there and done that" before and just want to point you in the right direction.

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Your trying to half-*** the job to save a dime... its understandable, but here is the simple truth.... Throwing some valves in a head with worn seats won't give you anything...

What makes you think the seats are worn?

 

[642mx]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

What makes you think the seats are worn?

Its an 8 year old car! Whats it got, 100K or so on it?

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

You are also taking a gamble with the head gaskets...reusing them can result in a loss of compression....as you have found.

You are not likely to succeed in trying to reuse a cyl head gasket that has been r&r'd multiple times now if you go to the heads from a wrecking yard.

I was not about to put the $30.00 head gasket to just test pressure.

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

^^^^^
wasted my time posting....that says it all.

Nandy, I hope you don't think we are dumping on you, just trying to save you some time and grief....honest.

I dont think you guys are poking fun. Im just not sure if i was able to explain what i was trying to do that was nothing more that test compression.

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Its an 8 year old car! Whats it got, 100K or so on it?

Something like that, I cant recall. I have done a few valves changes prior and only one time I had send the head to a shop. Maybe I was just lucky. If it comes down that I have to use a shop to make them seal then might as well just get the head from the pull-a-part and go for that. She`s very disgusted with the car anyway and im sure it will be gone next year...
Thanks for y'alls help.

 

[642mx]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Your not going to want to hear this.... but if you grab a salvage yard head, it should be disassembled for a valve job and valve seals. The only reason to get a salvage yard is if you had a cracked head.

Your going to be money ahead by keeping your stock head and doing the job right. The little Mitsu's are good cars... and if you take care of it, it will last a long time. I've had 2 3000GT's and a Dodge Stealth (same as the GT).... I even sprayed one of them (on a regular basis) and it held up great.

 

[DECK SWABBER 58]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Your not going to want to hear this.... but if you grab a salvage yard head, it should be disassembled for a valve job and valve seals. The only reason to get a salvage yard is if you had a cracked head.

Your going to be money ahead by keeping your stock head and doing the job right. The little Mitsu's are good cars... and if you take care of it, it will last a long time. I've had 2 3000GT's and a Dodge Stealth (same as the GT).... I even sprayed one of them (on a regular basis) and it held up great.

+1^

LISTEN UP!

Your getting great advice here, you just cannot cut corners on stuff like this.
I have done this stuff for a living my whole life. And BTW, you cannot, absolutely cannot, reuse a head gasket.

I understand your trying to fix this on the cheap, but..., Is it cheaper to do it
right the first time OR cheaper to do it over the SECOND TIME???

 

[Lion hunter]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

Even if the seats aren't worn (which they likely are) they were lapped to the original valves, not the ones you bought. Head gaskets only compress once. I have had 2 cars with zero clearance valves break a timing belt. Neither of them broke a piston, only bent valves. If the pistons look good I'd bet that your safe spending the money for the head to be done right and it will be ok.

 

[45Auto]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

If you've still got it together, do a leak-down test and see where it's leaking.

I find it kind of strange that it managed to bend ALL of the intake valves and NONE of the exhaust valves. Doesn't take much to bend a valve bad enough that it won't seat correctly.

 

[Nandy]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

I was taking the head out of the car and the old timer neighbor across the street came to make small chat while I was working. He went and tell me that in his time they will check if a valve was not sealing properly by sitting the cyl head upside down and pouring either lighter fluid or mineral oil and checking to see if the level dropped. Anyone heard this?

 

[Lion hunter]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

That may be true but you have to figure that the fluid has no pressure on it. Your cylinders are holding at least 30 psi so unless you put that much or more pressure on it I don't think that test will tell you much.

 

[DECK SWABBER 58]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

I was taking the head out of the car and the old timer neighbor across the street came to make small chat while I was working. He went and tell me that in his time they will check if a valve was not sealing properly by sitting the cyl head upside down and pouring either lighter fluid or mineral oil and checking to see if the level dropped. Anyone heard this?

Yep, the "old timer" is correct. This will tell you if you have a BIG leak, just
like your describing in your earlier post of the low compression readings.

 

[j_martin]

Re: 2002 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder Cylinder/valves issue

+1^

LISTEN UP!

Your getting great advice here, you just cannot cut corners on stuff like this.
I have done this stuff for a living my whole life. And BTW, you cannot, absolutely cannot, reuse a head gasket.

I understand your trying to fix this on the cheap, but..., Is it cheaper to do it
right the first time OR cheaper to do it over the SECOND TIME???

+2 You got to this point by skipping scheduled maintenance. (replacing the timing at the recommended mileage.)