Why must some always cry foul?

[rottenray6402]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

CJY, as far as your argument about drawing lines to exclude certain minorities.... isn't that why we have had busing for the past 30 years to create integration no matter where the lines are drawn? I think this is indicative of lack of parenting than anything else. We have 4th and 5th generation welfare mothers who are children themselves many times trying to raise kids. These problems started to get huge when out of wedlock pregnancy was rewarded instead of frowned upon. Until the minority communities stop blaming everyone else and get there own houses in order it will never improve.

 

[NMplayer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Federal and state governments as well as professional accrediting agencies have licensing boards that license plumbers, lawyers, doctors electricians, teachers, police, EMS, bankers and the list goes on and on, but don't forget outboard mechanics. <br /><br />These professions require at least some form of training and the ability to pass a board test. <br /><br />Go ahead you be the first to hire a wrench to work on your new Etech who couldn't pass a test that proved he knew about the motor. Lets all get behind the disenfranchised who can't pass the company's technical tests. In fact the engineers and designers of the motor may not be diverse enough. Lets get folks in there to make it all fair. Who gives a dam if it'll even start.<br /><br />Why don't you hire an electrician to wire your new house who is only an electrician because he wanted to be one and we had to fill a quota. We need a more diverse set of teachers, so your kid gets the math teacher who couldn't pass the test for having that credential. (already happening)<br /><br />We have identified standards that applicants must meet to get these jobs and keep them and this is the way it should be. If not, we will eventually get to the point that nobody knows how to do anything but wait for their check. Wait, we're already pretty close

 

[CJY]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

CJY, as far as your argument about drawing lines to exclude certain minorities.... isn't that why we have had busing for the past 30 years to create integration no matter where the lines are drawn?

No. When local zoning lines are drawn, it does not matter how far a bus can drive. The bus takes them to the school in which they have been zoned. <br /><br />Speedwagon, is that your best? You do realize that I only made the statement in the same vein in which is was presented to me.

 

[CJY]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

NMplayer, if you are speaking to me, where did I say that anybody needs to lower standards?

 

[NMplayer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

That is in effect what you are advocating whether you know it or not

 

[Colorado04]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

If I was a part of the cultural groups noted in the article, I would be very offended. I got the feeling from the aritcle that a group of people that I have no connection with was tell me that I was too "dumb" to participate on my own merit, so they had to make it easier to be included.<br /><br />Evey culture has their "bad apples" and every culture has their "shining stars". I do wish however, that more people regardless of culture or ethnicity would stand up and be more accountalbe and responsible for their actions.<br /><br />Just a thought.....

 

[rottenray6402]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

I think those are excellent points Colorado, I think the shame of this whole discussion, which is just the tip of the iceberg of this problem, is that many of these people will never know what tremedous feats they are capable of because the bar keeps getting lowered. Everyone regardless of race needs to be challenged on a personal basis to do their best. Some people are better at certain things than others, I know I could have never been a Pro Football player because I suck at it, however I have proven to myself I do have other skills and talents. I found this out by being forced through one means or another to develop these talents if I wanted to get a head in life. If someone would have just said "Oh that's OK you are to dumb to do this we'll just lower the bar" I would have been insulted but probably would have taken what was offered.

 

[CJY]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

That is in effect what you are advocating whether you know it or not

What??? Did you make that up? I think you need to reread. Nowhere did I say or imply scoring standards should be lowered. I explicity expressed the need for tests to be written in a way that does not favor one race over another. Otherwise, lawsuits will continue. I have said that over and over! Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[treedancer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

My family name is Broadfoot I wonder where that would fit in all of this? Buy the way when I gradated from the eighth grade the class average reading was twelfth grade.<br /> Started algebra in the sixth grade I hope everyone in the class of thirty-nine would be able to pass a simple math test.

 

[Speedwagon]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Originally posted by treedancer:<br /> My family name is Broadfoot I wonder where that would fit in all of this? Buy the way when I gradated from the eighth grade the class average reading was twelfth grade.<br /> Started algebra in the sixth grade I hope everyone in the class of thirty-nine would be able to pass a simple math test.

I can't decide if that's good or bad. On one hand, it's good for you and your class. On the other, it shows that's twelfth graders don't read so well.<br /><br />In theory, a class should be reading at their own level, but I would hope that would be a high level.

 

[NMplayer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Sorry,I couldn't get back to this until today.<br /><br />CJY<br /><br />I have been an educator for 12 years. I have seen more standardized tests than you ever will. You can never get rid of the "test bias" that causes people to sue. Wake up, the reason these candidates could not pass this test is because they did not know the material or have the critical thinking skills to pass it. Test bias wouldn't amount to 20 percentage points unless you gave a blind man a print test.<br /><br />Bottom line? This reprehensible test bias that you are so concerned about won't cause a 2 to 3 percent difference. The reason law suits are filed is because these folks don't have the skills to pass them. They want the test redesigned so they can pass it. The only way you do that is to make the test easier.<br /><br />PS This is not as much of a racial thing as its portrayed to be. A lot of these tests are written in urban centers in the east or west. My poor little rural New Mexico kids don't have a chance. Maybe they should sue. Naw, I'd rather teach them what they don't know so they can pass the test and prove they are qualified to do the job they want. You know something? They'd rather have it that way too.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Maybe the test should be given in Spanish & Ebonics! .....JK

 

[CJY]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

I have been an educator for 12 years. I have seen more standardized tests than you ever will.

First of all, it is not how many test you have seen, it is what you know about them.<br /><br />Second of all, I have been in public education as a HS science teacher for 17 years and have been an administrator for the past 3. So, if you want to make qualifications based on years of service...well, need I say more. Maybe you have been taking biased tests which have caused you to believe you have all the knowledge. <br /><br />Upon reading the rest of your post, you continue to show great ignorance on a topic you have such great knowledge of. <br /><br />Case in point:<br /><br />NMplayer, you said:<br /><br />

You can never get rid of the "test bias" that causes people to sue.

NMplayer, then you said: <br /><br />

Wake up, the reason these candidates could not pass this test is because they did not know the material or have the critical thinking skills to pass it.

So, if I have read your two statements correctly, you acknowledge test bias, while you say candidates don't have the skill to pass.<br /><br />These two statements conflict, and make no sense. You cannot tell a person to take a biased test, then base your opinion of their knowledge on said test. Furthermore, the 2-3 percent you speak of...where did that come from? To quote an iboater from a previous thread, "should I have heard the pop when you pulled it out?"<br /><br />The percentage difference would entirely depend on the amount of bias. The amount of bias is dependent on who makes the test and who takes the test. To make such a statement of 2-3 percent difference at best leads me to believe you have very little knowledge of standardized test. Rather, you have an opinion and while you were stating it, your foot got caught in the middle.

 

[NMplayer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

The two statements do not conflict at all. Test bias will rarely if ever cause someone to fail a test on subjects and skills that they should have learned or acquired. This is especially true when talking about simple competency type tests. If you have as much experience as you say you do, then you ought to know that.<br /><br /><br />"You cannot tell a person to take a biased test, then base your opinion of their knowledge on said test."<br /><br />Why not? If you were a teacher, you did it all the time. We're not asking people who read and speak only German to take these tests. In fact, in the police case we are asking people who have a highschool diploma to pass a math test. Given that grade levels and curriculum are standardized in each state and are fairly consistant across state lines, its a good bet that this test isn't biased enough to cause someone with basic math skills to bomb it.<br /><br /><br />You also ought to know that producing a non biased test is completely impossible because you can't get a statistical sample big enough to generate the norms that you'd need.<br /><br />The 2%-3% was a guess, probably not a bad one for most tests today.<br /><br />Questions<br /><br />Did you ever give a kid his points back on a test question because he missed it due to test bias?<br /><br />Did you ever create tests and quizzes in your classes and how did you keep them from being biased?<br /><br />I doubt you thought about either very often. Why? because barring disabilities, teachers expect students to do homework, study and learn what they are taught. We use tests to determine how well that happens. If you are one of those who says we shouldn't, then again you are by default in favor of lowering standards.

 

[cpj]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Im with NMplayer.

 

[CJY]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Did you ever give a kid his points back on a test question because he missed it due to test bias?<br /><br />Did you ever create tests and quizzes in your classes and how did you keep them from being biased?<br /><br />I doubt you thought about either very often.

#1 - yes<br /><br />#2 - Yes, and I never said eliminating bias is easy. It is often difficult to recognize until after the test has been given. Once the test has been given and scored, you simply look at each question individually to see the percentage of students answering it correctly vs. incorrectly. If a large percentage of the test takers have missed a question, it could be due to poor teaching, or a use of language the students do not understand. Therefore, you throw it out. Did you not take an assessment class in undergrad during your studies to become a teacher???<br /><br />I have said all that I can here. Good luck with your teaching.<br /><br />By the way, why do you doubt that I have given either of these questions much thought? I think/thought about them every single time I give/gave any formal assessment. I find your assumptions to be ignorant and quite amusing for one educator to say to another educator. <br /><br />If you have given them much thought, why would it be so unusual for another to give them equal thought? Perhaps it is because you have given little thought to the questions you pose.

 

[ob]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

I'd be interested in hearing a couple of examples of #1 and #2 so as to be more clear on this bias issue being discussed.

 

[NMplayer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

I guess I'm about done too. <br /><br />When I said that I doubted whether you had thought about it, I didn't mean it in the context of talking about your professionalism. <br /><br />Yeah, I took assessment, advanced statistics and several research classes along with designing a test for my thesis and evaluating normative data on a Native American population for my dissertation.<br /><br />I don't know what science you taught, but lets say you were teaching about the basic parts of a cell. The membrane is the membrane, the mitochondria is the called that etc. I will assume that you taught it well. Then you give the students a diagram to label. You and I both know it doesn't matter if the student is purple, the right answer is the right answer.<br /><br />I bet you had some that couldn't or more probably wouldn't pass it. Now I'm sure that if we got a few lawyers and parent advocates involved we could have accused you of not making the test fair. I can tell from your posts that this would have been untrue, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that through litigation you would have given the kid who bombed the test a pass. I look at this police deal the same way. This police department has an obligation to ensure that the people they hire can meet the physical and cognitive demands of the job. So, they give a test to determine that. Is the test biased? Certainly, they all are. The question is, does it do what it was designed to do to meet the needs of the public that the department serves? I'd bet you its not bad.<br /><br />I am for making tests as unbiased as possible, but we will never get to the place where someone won't feel like they got a raw deal.<br /><br />It may help you to understand why this burns so much if you know that I am a Speech-Language Pathologist and I also have teaching endorsements for the classroom in elementary and K-12 special ed. I taught regular ed for a few years and now I am more on the special ed side of things

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

#2 - Yes, and I never said eliminating bias is easy. It is often difficult to recognize until after the test has been given. Once the test has been given and scored, you simply look at each question individually to see the percentage of students answering it correctly vs. incorrectly. If a large percentage of the test takers have missed a question, it could be due to poor teaching, or a use of language the students do not understand. Therefore, you throw it out. Did you not take an assessment class in undergrad during your studies to become a teacher???<br /><br /><br />Maybe they just didn't know the answer, or did that thought ever cross your mind?

 

[treedancer]

Re: Why must some always cry foul?

Beach police agree to drop cutoff score on math test.

Wow Ken I bet that you didn’t think that this subject would get this heavy did you?