Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

[sheboyganjohn]

I have been lurking for a long time and this is my first post. I have a 1973 Starcraft with a 888 outdrive 302 ford with 400 hrs on it. Just picked it up this year. It spent its whole life out of the water in a boat house. In my grand ignerance I blew the lower unit water pump before my first trip out (had it in a drum of water over the intake but below the water pump) and found out I had blown it a couple miles out on the lake after I had managed to melt the shift cable to the exhaust. Had the lower unit repaired but had the guy leave the engine for me. Everything ran fairly well the next trip out but it ran worse the hotter it got. Had a hard time getting it started when it was hot and would die when I went back to idle to shift. When it would cool down completely it ran fine. Well today I was working on the boat (changing out thermostat and cleaning up the front of the engine) when I decided to check the oil again. Well low and behold it is nice and milky. I am guessing it is a bad head gasket. I did some initial searching and found that the marine intake and head set is well over $100. The closest this boat will get to salt water is if someone drops a margarita overboard so I am assuming the auto version of the gaskets should work fine. The only problem is that from what I have read, this engine is a 302 with 351 heads. What do I use for gaskets, 351's or 302's, and what auto version matches up? Any help would be appreciated. By the way, I checked everything real well when I bought the boat and took it out for a while right before I handed over the check and everything ran well both wide open and at idle, all fluid were good etc. so this is all self inflicted this summer.

 

[rbezdon]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

I think for the intake set you are OK with the Automotive gaskets. The main difference is that the marine gaskets are usually rubber and more durable. I guess they can stand up to the higher levels of vibration etc the higher loads and operating speeds/conditions offer. I like them as they are very sturdy. This is true except for the head gaskets which I wouldnt sub on. The mairine gasket has a different construction for the higher laods to help prevent blowing. As far as which type, I cant help there. I am a Chevy guy. I know on the Chevy it wouldnt matter but you got a Fix or Repair Daily and I cant help there!!

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

on my engine (v6 chev) the orig. marine head gaskets were solid stainless steel. I used high quality automotive head gaskets. I figured the automotive type would seal better on used heads. So far so good about 50 hours on them.<br />Do a compression test before going any further though.

 

[JasonB]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

I'm running auto intake gaskets on my 888. The ehad gaskets are marine though. I believe the 302 and 351 use the same head gaskets as my engine is a 302 with 351 heads. Later 888's were built this way from Merc.

 

[steve n carol]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Don't be too quick to change the Head gaskets. Do the compression test, but, suspect the exhaust manifolds and risers...sl<br />Lurk around the search engine some and check out 'milky oil" for starts...sl

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Thanks for the input so far. I am pulling the exhaust risers first, mainly so it will be easier to get to the spark plugs. I have a socket that I can take them off without removing the risers, but I need a 5/8" open end wrench to take them off and I cannot find mine right now. I do have one other question, when pulling the risers, what do you disconnect first and exactly how heavy are these things. There are lift eyes on each one so I am assuming they are not light. I have what I think is called the log style. Solid all the way to the rear where there is a large elbow looking thing going up and over to the bellows.

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

o.k. I think I might have my terms wrong. The exhaust manafold had a lift eye on it, the riser (at the back of the manifold) did not. I have removed the riser and was ready to remove the manifold when the rain started, so I covered the boat back up and came inside. So here is my list of things to do the next chance I get:<br /><br />Finish removing the exhaust mainfold then go to the other side and remove the riser and manifold.<br /><br />Pull all the plugs and inspect.<br /><br />Compression check and leakdown check the motor.<br /><br />Anything else?

 

[steve n carol]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Yes, you can pressure test the risers and the manifolds. You can do these seperatly. I did mine in a wheelbarrow! Yes, the wheelbarrow was full of water, ha ha. I had to make ablock-off plate with a shrader valve, (off on old car rim), inserted through it. mine were shot. Thats why I had water on the oil. you should do a pressure test on the block also. I did mine with the garden hose. you can also do it with air. Leave the spark plugs and oil drain plug out when you do this. water or air will leak out from these areas if the block and heads or gaskets are damaged. <br />Before you install new oil, remove the old filter and crank the engine, (do not start), a few turns. Have a container in place to 'catch' the 'milky' oil from the oil pump and pick up tube. I used a 2 gallon water jug with the side cut out, (worked great)! <br />Being a Wisconson (sp), must be the cheese, boat, I would say that there is a HIGH probability of freeze damage. "search" 'freeze'.<br />The pressure test may point to this and save you BIG $$ on new manifolds and risers. <br />They are heavy, but if carolyn can lift them, the so can you! The lifting eye is for pulling the engine.<br /><br />Welcome to Boating...truly a hobby of the rich/poor and famous!

 

[vicsponjr]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Milky oil means water in the oil. Cracked head, cracked cylinder, or blown head gasket (maybe)A 302 gasket and a 351W head gasket are the same. Marine engines use marine gaskets. Steel ones will rust, unless it is a closed system with antifreeze/coolant and a heat exchanger. Pull the spark plugs and see if you got any "milky" ones. Any compression escaping thru cooling system (if its a closed system)? start the engine the coolant cap off. Any bubbles?

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Not so quick there Vic. In a marine engine, with water in the oil, always check the exhaust manifolds first (and second and third!)<br />Sheboy, as you seem to be following, steve has the best course of action for you. Answer the manifolds question first, then worry about heads & gaskets.

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

When I get the exhaust off how do I check it for leaks? Am I looking at the manifold, the riser, or both? <br /><br />One more thing that might help, when I overheated it I got it hot enough to shrink up the serial number labels on the valve covers like they were shrinky dinks. I guess that is what happens when you run the engine for almost 10 minutes with no water.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

10 minutes with no water? Those labels melt at around 325 to 350 degrees. The engine's scrap.. do a compression test to satisfy your curiosity and then go used engine shopping. Look for a 351 out of a truck, change the core plugs to brass. use your old cam if it lived, swap all periferal's from your old engine.<br /><br />If you call the major gasket manufacturer's, they will tell you that their auto gaskets are fine in fresh water. They will tell you to use their marine gaskets if going in salt water.<br /><br />If you really want proof your engine died, cut the oil filter open with a proper filter cutter (not a hacksaw) you will see bearing material, piston debris... the bearings started adhesion and smearing most definitely...unless you have a 20 gallon sump on your crankcase...<br />your oil was probably 500 deg. - you're lucky it didn't ignite...

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Well unfortunately I have two choices, fix this engine or park it for the rest of it life. I paid $2000 for it and if I tell the wife I need to change out the engine the response will be 'you are not putting another dime in that thing' since whe did not want a big boat to begin with. Plus we have only had it out three times. If I can get it running o.k. for a year or two I might be able to get a new engine it, but that is not going to happen at this exact moment in time. It runs perfectly fine when it is started from cold, just starts hard when it is hot and will not stay running at idle, until it cools all the way down again.

 

[David Kraus]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

If you would like to have sombody look at your engine I would recommend M&H outboard and sterndrive repair in Sheboygan. He has done a lot of work on my 69 omc sterndrive.

 

[vicsponjr]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Hey I got a question for TilliamWe, or anyone. I'm new to boating, have experience with auto engines, why check the exhaust manifolds first for water in the oil? Water backing down thru the exhaust valves?

 

[steve n carol]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Due to their design and construction, after an uncertian amount of time of exposure to the elements, they corrode out. Usally from the inside out. Then at that time water finds its way thouugh the exhaust chamber into the cylinder, past the rings into the crankcase. Remember, the water/coolant in under pressure, (from the pump/s). They, ( the manifolds and risers) wear out quicker in salt water...sl

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Originally posted by sheboyganjohn:<br /> if I tell the wife I need to change out the engine the response will be 'you are not putting another dime in that thing'

I think most here would estimate that it would cost you approx. 3X the $ to fix the one you have, than it would to put another engine in... That's if the crankshaft survived... and being a 351, it probably didn't so make it 4X.<br /><br />Why do girlfriends like boats, and wives .. oh hang on, that's cause girlfriends don't get the bills...

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

I should have been more clear, "I" need to fix this engine, not have it fixed. The brother-in-law is picking up a gasket kit for me from the shop he gets all his parts from (he builds drag engines for fun, at least until he got married) and will also pick up the leak-down set from him (will also do compression checks). I will have more data either Monday or Tuesday since it's my weekend on at work, but have those two days off.<br /><br />And to answer what many of you might be thinking, yes I will have him build an engine if that is the course I need to go, but I would prefer to put that off for a year or two if possible.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

crank - $500<br />rebuild kit- $500<br />Align bore and mill block - $250<br />head work - $200<br />pistons - $500<br />hardware - $100<br /><br />vs.<br /><br />good used engine $700

 

[rbezdon]

Re: Story of the boat plus auto gasket use question

Its a Ford 302. You can get a remanufactured long block for less than you are showing here easy. Likely some where around 1200. Much better than a used engine.