THEORY: How long under water

[imported_scott_m]

See this thread for complete details of why the motor was under water and what is being done about it:<br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013505 <br /><br />The theoretical question I want to pose to our experts: What are the long term impacts of a motor that had salt water in the cylnders (already pumped out of the oil pan and oil changed) for 24 hours? <br /><br />After 24 hours the plugs were removed, the motors rolled over (expelling about a quart of water from the plug holes), plugs reinstalled, and motors fired right up. The motors were then run for approximately 2 hours at idle speed and shut down. The oil filter was never changed and the oil was not changed again.<br /><br />Would you accept these as 'good' motors (ignoring the obvious being the electricals surrounding them are shot - starter, alt, ignition, harness, etc.) What can be expected to fail in these motors?

 

[KaGee]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Other than changing the oil and filters again... as soon as possible... I would think the basic engine would be reuseable.<br /><br />It's the longevity of all the electrical componenets (starter, alternator, etc) unless they too were disassembled & overhauled.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

as long as there is no internal corrosion the mechanical and shiney parts really dont care. hoiwever the other concern is the amont of sand contamination, most saltwater submerged motors will have a large amount of sand embedded in the bearings shortly after engine start. thats why most all manufactureres recommend a teardown rather than a restart after saltwater submersion.

 

[imported_scott_m]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

The insurance company is more than happy to pay for all of the electricals - I'm not concerned about that - however, they do not feel like the motors need to be opened up and rebuilt - that's what has me concerned. There was quite a bit of sand in the cabin and bilge and surely some of that has gotten inside the motors.

 

[trebor0301]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Sure they do not feel like your motor needs opened up and rebuilt.I would ask them what qualifies them to make that call.

 

[KaGee]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

What does the shop say?<br />They are the professionals.

 

[lowshovel1]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

how many hours on engines? I would ask the tech that is working on it what he would do if it was his personal craft. I'm sure he would agree with rodbolt! then take that educated opinion to insurance co. What could they say,?the people they have repairing your boat don't know what there talking about? keep us posted

 

[rodbolt]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

if there is sand in the cabin its in the engine. if the engine has been started the odds are great you now have a junker. it may or may not need a rebuild, sometimes a careful cleaning of the bearings,cam and crank and a set of lifters will be about it. but most the motors I see that injest sand tend to have short lives.ya also have to be aware that the oil filter ony sees about 10% of the oil flowing from the pump. the rest is dumed via the filter bypass valve.<br /> its not up to the insurance company to dictate the repairs, only thing they will go by is the cost, usually if the cost exceeds 75% of the insureds value it will be totaled.<br /> while the insurance company may not have to replace it with new it usually is required to restore the damaged article to the same condition as before the incident.

 

[imported_scott_m]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

The motors have about 900 hours on them, have always run great, never used oil, and have/had great oil pressure - 454 Merc Bluewaters at 340HP.<br /><br />More details - insurance hired the surveyor - surveyor hired the mechanic to do the inital assessment and pickle the motors. Surveyor has been somewhat non-responsive, and when I mentioned this to the insurance people they said - well, we've had great luck with him on many other claims. <br /><br />Mechanic's initial reaction to the water in the motors was replace, not rebuild. Obviously, at the direciton of insurance thru the surveyor, mechanic now is saying - oh just electricals on the motors, they're fine (based on the fact that they ran for 2 hours). I assume the transmissions/v-drives are going to be the same issue with the salt and sand ingestion? No work has been done to preserve the transmissions.<br /><br />Rodbolt, I really respect your opinions - followed lots of your threads - how much sand to wreck the bearings - I mean are we talking about a couple of grains, a hand full, etc.<br /><br />Our insurance company is using a figure of 80 percent to total the boat, and right now with the repairs at 25,000 we're around 67 percent.

 

[searay3]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Insurance companies tick me off...You think the mechanic or surveyor would state any amount of sand in their car motor would be ok? The boat was SUBMERGED!!! You pay the premiums for the coverage, either they replace the drives/motors/electrical, or they give you the money to buy something else. I would not negotiate the damage. Just the dollar amount. An attorney might end up cheap here compared to what you stand to lose.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

sometimes it does not take much. sand will embedd in the bearing materiel. the bearing is designed with a certain amount of embedability. will your motor fail? dont know. dont know how much sand was injested via the rocker cover vents.. but at least a tear down and inspection would be advisable. some techs are afraid of motors and usually just opt to replace them. the machinist I used for some years retired so I dont know if I will do many more. the one I use for outboard blocks and such is closing in on retireing. dont know what I will do then.<br /> but a simple tear down and inspection/flushing should not take more than 15 hours or so, excluding removal and installation of the power plant. and it can be done by any competent tech. it requires no machine work just some attention to details. if the bearings and rings are not damaged they can even be reused if kept in the same orientation. we did it on our race car several times a year just looking. we found it was cheaper than allowing a worn part to take the motor apart.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Now hang on Searay. I guess I'll defend the insurance company, since no one else will! (kinda like defending the known guilty???)<br /><br />The independent appraiser that inspected the boat, and the "mechanic" that he had help him are part of the problem. Note what Mack says, the "mechanic" isn't pushing for a teardown. So, if the insurance company is being told buy an appraiser & a "mechanic" that the motors are fine, of course that's what they believe.<br /><br />Your advice of hiring an attorney, is way premature (as usual Americans think, sue sue sue), and not practical. Attorneys do not take physical damage cases only, there is not enough money in it. And all that happens is Mack gives the attorney 33% of the total damage to the boat. Oh, by the way, $37000 (insured amount of the boat) less attorney's 33% is $24420, or $580 less than current repair amount offered by insurance company. You probably didn't have all this info when you advised "sue", but when you do, you see it's pointless (as it usually is).<br />I have given Mack advice under his other thread, and I will continue to do so.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

it's quite simple. The insurance company wants to get away from this spending the least amount of cash. You want things back to what they were. You are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Threaten to get your lawyer involved or get them to do the complete proper job. You are risking the cost of a new engine replacement to let it go the way they want it to.

 

[searay3]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

I did not say sue. I said get an attorney. I have learned the painful way. I would bet the appraiser is being paid by the insurance company. Not sure of the mechanic, but he changed his story AFTER talking with the appraiser. If the appraiser and mechanic cost the insurance money, they won't be getting a paycheck from them for very much longer. Any attorney worth his salt, will for say a hundred bucks, write a letter to the parties involved and this will probably end the bickering as to who will pay for what. It absolutely boils down to how the policy is written. You or I probably can't decipher the legaleeze anyway. My point...do not let them push you around. He stands to lose multi thousands. He also pays premiums for that at a substantial rate. It sounds like they are not giving him a fair shake. Without something on your side as a bargaining chip, you will lose. It is their position to pay as little as possible avoiding a suit. That is all the insurance is worried about. When the salesman calls, he will do everything for you. But when the claims department has it, the whole attitude change. Once he signs off on it, it's over. No recourse. And he's not asking for anything outlandish. He, just like anyone else, wants a fair shake.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

searay & cobra you are both wrong in the big picture.

 

[searay3]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Don't mean to start a political disussion. But....Bigger picture? Let's see...<br />Who's? The client ? the Ins Comapny? This is about A client, A boat, and <br />coverage of THAT boat...A signed and 'money exchanged hands CONTRACT...to<br />me, the insurance company rep should be doing eveything he can to put it back to where it was<br />when damaged. Common sense says if there is sand in the cabin area, there is sand EVERYWHERE..<br />The v-drives, the pumps,impellors, everything...whatever work was done should be warranted..if not<br />pay the man his money and move on..he agreed as did the Ins co.

 

[imported_scott_m]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Guys - no reason to get so heated - I was there 3 weeks ago when the boat went down, but now I'm a little more calm about the situation. Thus far, I've not seen any of the estimates from the insurance company or mechanic. Yes, it is true - when the mechanic found water in the oil pan (3 quarts), he said - well heck, that's it for these motors, and now here we are saying well, the motors are probably OK. Point here being I negotiate deals for a living - I want to calmly and technically explain to the insurance company the ramifcations of having sand in the motor, point out the fact that indeed the motors were not pickled until 24 hours after the sinking, and thus far, no effort has been made to preserve the transmissions or v-drives. There has been talk about an open work order for one year after repairs are made - ultimately I know these guys can get the boat back to better than new condition - I just don't have the time or energy to see it thru that process. Plus - without new motors from the get go, I have a serious trust issue with the boat - am I going to run it 30-40 miles off shore to fish? Likely not, however with new motors that might be a different story. My hope was that the boat was totaled so I could purchase new and move on. My intent behind this post is to get good technical advice about what is likely to go wrong with these motors and when.

 

[Phantom17]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Do you think the insurance co cares about what you say about the long term of your motor? They care about getting out as cheaply as possible, so they can collect off of re-insurance, and lose less than what they could. If you don't move and move hard against the insurance co, send me your premiums, I'll insure your boat. <br /><br />One thing Americans don't realize about insurance companies is that they are the closest thing to legalized organized crime there is. If you want your boat back to the way it was, fight them, not explain to them, they don't care. An Attorney should write a letter demending an amicable settlement. BTW, personally, I'd lose the boat. Not worth the long term problems you could face.<br />Good luck.

 

[lowshovel1]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

AMEN jh19,

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: THEORY: How long under water

Reinsurance will not apply on this loss. Reinsurance is for when an insurance carrier suffers a catastophic loss amount. Kinda like State Farm will with Katrina.<br />My last word on all you insurance bashers... You darn sure seem to think it's worth it when you rear end someone & they are claiming injuries, when you you know for a fact that they are out playing golf. You don't spend the time or MONEY needed to investigate fraudulant claims, but your insurance company does. You would all go broke trying to insure yourself for your own liabilities. I wish it wasn;t that way, but it is. Until that changes, insurance is needed.