What to do...whats it worth?

[spartanpele]

Well, my worst case scenario on my boat has come to fruition. The boat shop called to tell me that in addition to my manifold being cracked, I also have a crack in the block. Now I'm in panic mode trying to figure out what to do. <br /><br />But one question I have is this...can you determine a crack in the block without doing a compression test? The mechanic says he can see a crack right underneath the manifold, in the same area that the manifold is cracked and leaking, and I'm wondering if the leak isn't the manifold vs the block. They didn't do a compression test or leak down test. All they did was run it on muffs and then look for the water leaks.<br /><br />Specifics:<br />My boat is a 1994 Four Winns Freedom, 17ft, open bow, with an OMC/Volvo Penta 3.0 GS engine. The boat itself is mint with no rips, tears, scratches. The outdrive is fine and clean. The trailer is matching with the removable tongue. I also have all the ropes, bumpers, skis, vest, a bimini top, depth locater, cd player, etc to go with it. The rest of the engine is fine, but the mechanic says that it had a freeze crack and needs a long block. The manifold still will need to be replaced too. The mechanic believes the head is fine.<br /><br />The quote from the boat shop is $5000-6000 for the new block, manifold with everything put back on. That seems awfully steep to me. The wife and I only paid $6500 for the boat last fall and now we're trying to determine whether to sell it or fix it.<br /><br />If we sell it as is...whats it worth knowing that it needs a new engine? I could be a pr*ck like the last guy who sold it to us and simply sell it without saying whats wrong, but I couldn't live with myself. I'm thinking of selling as is on ebay and letting the next person know whats wrong. But whats it worth?<br /><br />On the flip side, I've seen ads from michiganmotorz, etc, that lists the engine for $2000 plus s&h of $300. I'd still have to buy the manifold ($400), and then do all the labor myself. Of course, I could simply pick it up from the shop (its only costing $100 right now for the diagnosis), and wait for an engine to come along on ebay or locally and do the swap that way. <br /><br />Any comments would be greatly appreciated....

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

No one will suggest it here except maybe me, but why not try and fix the crack with JB weld. Grind it out first(like a small Dremel) and apply the metal epoxy(JB). It might just hold up for many more years before needing any attention again. The stuff worked great on my manifold and is holding strong. Worse comes to worse and if it breaks again soon, then worry about spending for another engine. What have you got to lose trying anyway? <br /> <br />What exactly is leaking from this crack?

 

[tommays]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Its worth next to nothing if its not running <br /><br />The question is have you every changed a motor before in a car or boat ? or have a good friend who has <br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[Bondo]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

and then do all the labor myself.

That's the Real Question,.......Are You Able,...... And,... Will You Do It,..???....<br /><br />At this point,+ with this Info,...... You need to Replace the Manifold,...........<br /><br />Is there Water passing Into the Oil,..???....

 

[JLowe59]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Sorry to hear about your engine. The price quoted IMO is on the high side. look for a local bobtail engine on ebay that you can go see locally. Take a knowledgeble mechanic with you. See it run. Do comp tests etc... After you have found the right engine, an independent (non-marina) mechanic with references could install it for a reasonable price. I am thinking $2500-$3000 total if you are patient,or buy the block and manifold and have an indy work on that(switching all parts) and install. Still not cheap but like tommays says, worth very little otherwise. The education you can get working along side someone who knows what they are doing could be worth a lot if you will stay in boating. As for JB weld its great stuff for temp fixes, but to use it for a repair and hope it lasts is not practical. If the odds are it will fail "sometime"... you had better hope that sometime is not in an inlet or some other time that breaking down is bad. Waiting for trouble is not a good idea. In any event good luck and let us know which way you went

 

[spartanpele]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

To answer some of the questions....<br /><br />I've rebuilt auto engines before, but that was a decade ago and I'm not sure I still have the patience to go through the knuckle busters again. The normal routine maintenance I can handle, but a full bore rebuild...I'd have to really think about it.<br /><br />As for JB, I've used that on a different boat before on the skeg and had good results, but I'm not sure if I'd chance it on a block application. But at the same time, what do I have to lose?<br /><br />I haven't seen the crack myself as I only found out about it tonight. I'm waiting for the shop to give a detailed work order estimate on the full job (block, manifold, all labor), and then will decide what to do. I'd definetly want to look at it firsthand before deciding to go forward with a full new engine.<br /><br />There is water passing into the oil, but I don't know if its from the cracked manifold, the block, or both.<br /><br />Right now I'm leaning towards simply waiting, taking it home, and scouring ebay or the paper for a suitable bolt-in replacement. <br /><br />The other option is finding something off the net. Has anyone used Michigan Motorz? <br /><br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-...hZ002QQitemZ4646819791QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW <br /><br />I'm wondering how that would work out, or if its worth the additional money. Heck, it would probably be cheaper to drive to Michigan and have them do it vs having my local shop do it...<br /><br />Of course, the final option is to simply do nothing, put it up for sale,take the loss, and move onto a different hobby.<br /> <br />Any other options or thoughts??

 

[bamadave]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Hobby? How long have you been into your hobby? Speaking for myself, take my wife, take my house, take my plane even, but my boats, don't even think about it. It's neither here nor there now, but, and I think I already know the answer, is the damage from negligence in not winterizing the engine properly? If so, maybe another hobby is better. It is a real expensive boating lesson learned, but you aren't the first and you won't be the last one to have this happen to. I read a thread just a day or two ago here where a man said he didn't know he had to winterize his boat. Someone that spends the money that it cost for the boat,and all that goes with it, and doesn't care to learn to maintain it, is in for a real surprise when it goes ka-blooey. If you stay in the HOBBY, I will bet you will never fail to it properly again. AND, forgive me IF I jumped to the wrong ASSumption.

 

[swabbie63]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

I am no boating expert and I know there are some who will "Scoff" at what I am about to say. A few years back I purchased a used Bayliner that had not been properly winterized and had a crack in the block. I did my research and found that the engine was a chevrolet engine. I happened to have a friend who was into drag racing cars and I knew he could help me. He had an engine that I purchased and put in the boat. I used the boat all summer long with no problems and finaly sold it in the fall. I purchased almost the exact same model boat a month ago from ebay and have now purchased an engine and installed it. The boat runs great. The U-Joint bellow has a crack in it and I am waiting for the ordered part and then will be on the water. My point is that the motor in your boat is the same as in the cars running around your town. I spoke with a machine shop who builds boat engines and they told me that the main differences in the marine engine and a car engine are that the marine engine has brass freeze plugs, a different material is used on the head gaskets (though he said not to worry about this as the head gaskets will be fine for many, many years, and the cam shaft might be a little diffent for lower end torque. <br /> If I were you, I would buy a car engine that runs - and install it in the boat. Do it right and you can have your boat running for less than $500.<br /> By the way, the cracked block might not only be on the outside where you can see it. It might also be cracked in the valley between the heads underneath the intake manifold. This was the case with this last boat that I purchased.<br /> What area of the country are you located?<br /> I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[JasonB]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Swabbie, the issue may be that the motor is a 3.0. I don't think it was ever used in a car. Strictly industrial type stuff. <br /><br />It took me about 5min of searching to find a new GM longblock for $2000. A Reman should be cheaper still.<br /><br />Befuddles me a bit that a 3.0 4cyl will cost more thn a V6 or V8, but then again, the 3.0 is something of a marine/industrial only piece...

 

[rodbolt]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

glad I never JB welded one, no not me, not no way no how.<br /> but if your gonna keep the rig your gonna buy a manifold and riser anyway. while the manifold is off dremel or side grinder it, drill a 1/8th hole at the ends of the crack and see what happens, if it then gets water in the oil your gonna be staring at a long block assy.<br />at least you will have a known good manifold and riser.

 

[spartanpele]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

bamadave...I've had hobbies before (cars, cycles, and now boats), but there does come a point when you seriously think about cutting your losses instead of sinking deeper into debt.<br /><br />As for the winterizing assumption, its a two fold situation. When we bought the boat late fall last year, we test drove it rigorously, checked all fluids, watched the temp guage, looked for leaks, etc, but never came across anything. Unfortunately, it wasn't till this spring that I found a small water leak which I thought was the power steering cooler that I noticed the prior owner had JB bondoed the manifold underneath. <br /><br />While I thought I had winterized properly, I'm pretty confident now that the guy knew the block and manifold was cracked and thats why he was selling it. I could turn around and do the same to another person, but I'm not that kind of person.<br /><br />As for what to do now, I'm waiting for a detailed writeup work order from the shop to see how much they're charging for block, manifold, and the labor. I've researched on the net and found I can get a new block from michigan motorz for around 2300, and a manifold from doug russell for about 300-400. So its possible to do it myself for under $3500 and be good as new. But I'm not sure I want to take on that big a project right now. With a wife, kids, dog, house pymt, etc, I'm questioning sticking that much money into it when I only paid $6500. Definetly if the shop comes back with a 5-6K bill I'm ready to walk.<br /><br />A lesson learned...hmmm...which one...the one about human truthfulness?...the one about disclosing problems?...the one about buyer beware?...the one about checking and rechecking all water/coolant is out of the engine?... etc, etc. <br /><br />Forget the lessons, I'm looking for some solid advice.<br /><br />Has anyone used michigan motorz before?? Has anyone bit the bullet and got a new block and been glad they did?? Is this just throwing more money into the lake??

 

[tommays]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

If your going to keep boating and are happy with the performance of the 3.0 motor it sounds like its as good a used boat as you will find<br /><br />The Volvo is good drive BUT i would have its condition checked also before going forward <br /><br />As for the cracks if it was cracked when you bought it there would have been all kinds of running problems when you tested the boat <br /><br />tommays

 

[spartanpele]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

tommays...thats the interesting part to this situation. It ran great when we test drove it, and even now it runs extremely well. It was only when I changed out the oil that I noticed the discoloration and started researching for water entry. Had I not changed the oil, I never would have guessed anything was wrong. <br /><br />I keep wondering if the crack in the manifold is whats allowing the water into the oil, and perhaps the crack in the block is merely letting water out? I don't know. I personally didn't see a crack in the block when I was investigating and crawling around with a mirror and flashlight. A compression test hasn't been done and neither has a leak down test. This is the first time using this shop although they have a good reputation in town.<br /><br />The Mrs. and I are going back and forth about keeping it and putting in a new engine knowing that compared to other boats out there, this one is pretty nice. Its just the sticker price thats keeping us from simply saying yes, put in a new one. I'll likely be driving there this afternoon and insist on being shown the crack in the block.

 

[cjflanagan]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Just a thought but what if you drilled the ends of the crack ground it out and actually welded the crack in the block and kept the boat? Probably not accessible but trying to be optimistic. Perhaps a second opinion is in order too...

 

[lrlima]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Dont know if this will help any, but I have a similiar situation to yours. I have a 1993 Four Winns with a 4.3 that I bought last year. I winterized AND stored it in a heated garage. but this year experienced rough idle and lost compression in a cylinder. Upon further inspection, found a crack in the block just under the manifold. Water wasnt pouring out and the oil wasnt milky, but I'm sure it helped with my compression issues. Dont know if the previous owner know it our not when he sold it...I didnt see it on my initial inspection cause you have to practically be upside down to see it. <br /><br />I decided to cut my losses and replace with a long block instead of JB weld. Who knows what else I'd find once tearing the thing down. Found a marine 4.3(remanufactured) on ebay that had a two year warranty for $1200 plus $150 ship. Only having $3500 invested in the boat I figured I'd be in good shape for a while. Me and an experienced buddy will be doing all of the labor so that helps cut costs.

 

[lilmandavis]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

i do boatwork on the side and all i do is engines. if the block is cracked, piston is failing, any big problem like yours, i sell them a new long block. then i make money and save them money in the long run. if you like your hull then id say do the long block. its alot better and there are no worries about when the next problem is goin to come up. and you said that there is water in the oil. <br /><br />boating is expensive. so either spend the money, make the wife mad-or sell the boat, make the wife mad cause you lost the money. id say make the wife mad and then shell be happy down the road when shes out on it again! as for the kids, how old r they. time to start learning something bout engines?!? get the parts, do the job, there r very few mechanics that i trust around here. i have a flow of customers that love me. i come along and give em an engine when some other mechanic is nickel and dimimg them to death. but you know the bull. i get my engine from RAPID O MARINE http://www.rapidomarine.com/default.aspx call them to see if they have a 3 liter

 

[spartanpele]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Irlima, that sounds awfully familiar. Even if the guy didn't know about the block, theres no doubt he knew about the manifold given the booger JB weld job he did way underneath the manifold. And yep, unless I was hanging upside down with a flashlight, theres no way I would have seen it. <br /><br />btw: I just got a 2nd cost estimate from another local shop. New block, new manifold, parts, labor...$3300. Thats sure better then the initial $5100 from the first place. They said they could schedule me in for 6/23 and it would take 2-3 days. <br /><br />They also told me of a place in town that does stitch welding on engine blocks $100 an inch, with good results. But, if the crack is internal as well as external, then it won't solve the water in the oil problem.<br /><br />So unless the first marina comes back with a reduced estimate, (which I doubt), it looks like I'll be picking up the boat tonight and will take it home till next Friday when the 2nd shop can take it. <br /><br />Its still not cheap, but at least the peace of mind will be there knowing its all new. I know the Mrs will appreciate not hearing any swearing or complaints of knuckle busters from me either.

 

[lilmandavis]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

the only thing that is goin to solve water in the oil prob in a cracked block for good is.....yep a new block! 3300 isnt that bad, id ask to see some of his customer contacts . id contact them and see how they felt about this "mechanic" !! if he wont give you a list then run. fast . is that with new bearings and the crank turned too? new bearings + non tuned crank = bad oil pressure. MAKE SURE the crank is turned!! in order to have the block welded you have to tear it down anyways. and the deck machined due to warpage. bearings have to come out to do it right and the block heated before welded. welding is good on impossible to find blocks. id have the head magna fluxed to be sure.

 

[DayCruiser]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

Ya my block was welded last June and then a sealer was added on top of that. So far so good. Find you a good cast Iron welder

 

[spartanpele]

Re: What to do...whats it worth?

I picked up my boat last night from the 1st shop. They are so disorganized its not funny. They almost seemed in shock that I would pick up the boat and not have them do the engine change out. They didn't even have a bill for the 1 hr diagnosis ready and were unsure where the keys were. <br /><br />On the way home I called up the 2nd shop and reverified everything. It will be a new, not remanufactured, motor with new manifold, gaskets, etc. Its a small 3.0L engine so its not as pricey as a v6 or v8, etc. The price for the new engine is right in line for what I was finding at 3-4 other places off the web. <br /><br />The welding option would have been ok except that its getting water in the oil, so the crack is internal as well as external. The motor isn't unique and its not worth a full tear down for an easily replaceable new engine. (btw: I crawled around it last night and with a mirror and flashlight I could see the full crack in the block.) Not worth fixing.<br /><br />So barring something weird happening, next week I'll drop off the boat and a few days later I should have a new engine installed. Given the shape of the interior, exterior, trailer and everything else, I suspect having the boat for a long time now that a new engine is being installed. The 2nd shop is already talking to me about proper winterizing and if the engine install goes well, I'll let them winterize as well....(then I'll check and recheck it afterwards.)<br /><br />Thanks everyone for the info...I'll let everyone know how the new engine turns out in a couple weeks after I've finally taken it out this year!