Just a little insight into the oil side of the VRO2/OMS

[cfauvel]

Bosunsmate,
this thread maybe what I experienced....SeaHorse's response here speaks to what I observed
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi...es-when-closing-the-gas?p=6319321#post6319321

Probably need to bump up the RPM for my no-oil test

re-reading WernerF's post on his problem
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi.../552261-vro2-question-about-no-oil-flow-alarm
we see that he was working with an older 3 wire VRO, which as SeaHorse pointed out MAY have a different circuit to rule out false alarms.

So the expected horn at 1365 revolutions at idle (I think we are back to having 6 as the multiplier) may NOT be that simple and require a little more speed, I don't know....

Given that we may be back to a 6 multiplier and the 1365 revolutions to sound the alarm...at 2000 rpm the horn should sound in 41 seconds
(1365/2000 = ..6825.....68% of 60 seconds = 40.95 seconds)
How long can the fuel in the bowls last at 2000 rpm, that is a question.

So my next test will be to run at 2000 rpm and see if indeed the horn sounds in 41 seconds. (remember I was testing at 1100 rpm). I will warm up the engine...run(on premix) with out the oil line in and wait for horn (3 min and 40 seconds...now we know there is NO residual oil in the chamber)...shut the motor off to reset the counter, then re-run the motor at 2000 rpm with a stop watch.

I don't have a test wheel so can run it up to near WOT and don't feel like doing these tests on the water

 

[marty53]

Guys, I'll have to admit about 95% of what you guys are discussing is over my head, but I'm still impressed with it, and its a solid investigation into understanding these units better. Two weeks ago I purchased a 2004 johnson 50hp that the PO had already switched to premix because the "VRO had failed" I bought the engine anyway after test run, compression check, etc and everything checked out. I plan on purchasing a rebuilt VRO2/OMS unit on ebay.

I'd be happy to donate this 'failed' unit to the cause as per your previous conversation investigation into what actually failed.

 

[cfauvel]

Guys, I'll have to admit about 95% of what you guys are discussing is over my head, but I'm still impressed with it, and its a solid investigation into understanding these units better. Two weeks ago I purchased a 2004 johnson 50hp that the PO had already switched to premix because the "VRO had failed" I bought the engine anyway after test run, compression check, etc and everything checked out. I plan on purchasing a rebuilt VRO2/OMS unit on ebay.

I'd be happy to donate this 'failed' unit to the cause as per your previous conversation investigation into what actually failed.

please please do....it take me no time at all to take it apart and see if anything failed and where it failed....unless it is the electronics....that I have to refer to the 'Engineer' WernerF....

PM me and I'll give you my email and address..I'll pay for shipping

as far as 'failure' it IS a pump so yes the air motor or fuel pump can fail just like a regular pulse pump. I've gone through many pulse pumps on my rider lawn mower due to various things, such as the valves get stiff or pump diaphragm ruptures.

I'd use yours for some more photo references that I need to take....

 

[Bosunsmate]

Alright, talk about the saying a little knowledge is dangerous but this is progress with your higher rpm engine test and also noting what Mr Seahorse says. However I dont think an engne can last on no oil for all that time at idle and 2000 rpm at 41 seconds i think would be too long or at least dangerously close. Please video!

Its interesting that they talk about false alrarms and i cant imagine it being anything more than a high counter rate 8195 that they use to minimise false positive, its just in my opinion they have made it too high. Maybe you can in video include when the last counter reset pin stroke happens. You will need inspector gadget wth all his hands there soon.

But here i go out on a limb-My prediction is the alarm at 2000 rpm will sound at 8195/(2000*2pulse per rev)=2mins give or take a bit for the residual included.

Marty thanks a lot, probably best if you talk to Cfauvel orJbuote about that as Cf is our laboratorian and sending it down here to New Zealand especially since im in the country is way up on price

 

[cfauvel]

From memory I think the older rectifiers had the tach line directly connected on to the yellow stator wires output, whereas the newer ones come out of the regulator/rectifier like you say, perhaps this is the cause of the problem

on my stator the yellow wires are 20+v to the regulator....I think that would be too much for the vro electronics,
the regulator brings it down, and from my DVA test the other day (using old regulator) the grey wire at the pigtail was reading 10 - 11V, which is lower than the purple wire from the regulator 12+v and lower than the red wire from the regulator 14+v

I thought I saw a post from WernerF that stated the pulse should be around 8v for the grey wire (but Joe Reeves mentions that it should be around 10v....sooooo) .....going to re-test that with new regulator.....

tomorrow, we are actually using the boat as a family LOL

 

[Bosunsmate]

Also if you have time you could do the removing the oil and fuel from the intake to the pump at idle or 2000 and seeing just how long it takes for the engine to die so then you would know in practice whether raw fuel would of hit the engine by then in a oil failure scenario

 

[Bosunsmate]

tomorrow, we are actually using the boat as a family LOL

haha i suppose it can be used for boating

 

[marty53]

No Title

someone off topic, but for the good of the discussion, Does anyone have any insight on if there is any different between the two part numbers listed here: it looks like 5007421 replaced [FONT=&quot]5004562. [/FONT]Wondering if one is any more reliable than the other. I'm assuming the new one?

 

[cfauvel]

someone off topic, but for the good of the discussion, Does anyone have any insight on if there is any different between the two part numbers listed here: it looks like 5007421 replaced [FONT=&quot]5004562. [/FONT]Wondering if one is any more reliable than the other. I'm assuming the new one?

I don't think there is a difference,between the part number chain.and yes I'd go with the newer one and shop around I've seen in the $360 range
you part numbers appear to be for a smaller motor

(note I suspect that the difference between the variants of the same year but different HP applications, are the springs used)


my motor calls for 5007420

so I believe the difference between your 5007421 and my 5007420 is just the internal springs...being a V6 it has more vacuum being drawn..
I think putting a 5007421 on a V6 will cause too much oil to be delivered as the main spring would be weaker....now I have to see if my current
VRO part number is meant for the smaller engine...

UPDATE : 07/24/2017 NOPE the difference is the extra wiring that comes with 5007421

 

[marty53]

Thanks. Looks like yours, the 5007420 is a little cheaper than the 5007421 for the 40-50hp 2 cylinders. Go figure.

 

[cfauvel]

Thanks. Looks like yours, the 5007420 is a little cheaper than the 5007421 for the 40-50hp 2 cylinders. Go figure.

lack of demand I suppose

 

[cfauvel]

Some more pics of the various parts of the VRO.

Since the flowchart tests suggested that I replace the fuel pump diaphragm I decided to take pics of the pieces and take videos of some previous tests once I got that back together.











Also re-did some test

Oil consumption tests post fuel pump diaphragm
Initial Post Fuel Pump low-res

note the hi rate of oil consumption initially, but it calms down after a bit....will need to monitor the oil usage...I'm trying to get it to 50:1 rather than 18:1 like I'm was seeing.
Second test in hi-res

New No Oil Test run at 2000 RPMs. As hoped the time to sound is decreased significantly. An evinrude rep on Enation stated that the programming has changed to not sound so easily at idle...so suggested I tried at 1500....I went with 2000....of course ran on pre-mix
No Oil Test

Running the motor just on fuel in fuel bowls.
https://youtu.be/HlCteyyypG8

 

[marty53]

I just went thru this test procedure with my 50hp.... Mine sucks oil maybe at 1/3 or 1/4 the rate of this. I also couldn't figure out at all when the engine pulse was happening as per the test procedure. Any insight on how to find that?

 

[cfauvel]

I just went thru this test procedure with my 50hp.... Mine sucks oil maybe at 1/3 or 1/4 the rate of this. I also couldn't figure out at all when the engine pulse was happening as per the test procedure. Any insight on how to find that?

what year VRO is yours? if an older unit, then you could have a ratio as low as 150:1 at idle....then it went to 100:1.....my pump is 1999 so technically an OMS.

The pulse is not from the engine, but when the oil piston snaps back to the oil chamber(towards the electronics). With a clear 1/4" ID tube installed you can feel the pulse by gentle squeezing the clear tube. You can also see it as when the pulse happens the level of the oil in the clear tune will rise slightly before it draws the oil.

 

[jakedaawg]

Hold your hand on the pump, you will feel it "click".

 

[Bosunsmate]

Seems youve made progress, I cant find the video of time taken for alarm to sound.

 

[cfauvel]

Seems youve made progress, I cant find the video of time taken for alarm to sound.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Ta good to see.
The alarm still seems to be taking longer than it should, at 2000rpm it should be well short of a minute let alone when you add the first 25seconds at the beginning before you reach 2000rpm.
But the most clearest issue is you said that the engine was startng to run lean after 30secs which would mean at 2000rpm you would have at least another 25 seconds of raw fuel running in to the engine before the alarm sounded, thats a grizzly thought.
Any further work in coming up with a way to increase the pulses or change the input from q12 to like q8?
Seems you have the motor running well again after the pump change

 

[cfauvel]

If I had a test wheel or dyno I could test the no oil alarm at 4000 rpm and time engine running on fuel bowls at 4000...alas I don't.

nothing further on the gizmo to multiple the pulse count...my engineer 'friend' hasn't come back to the forum :-(

yeah the motor is working well at all rpms (knock on wood)....

 

[Bosunsmate]

Well whether you can check at 4000rpm or not theres still a problem at 2000 rpm.
It also makes me wonder what would they of done to the circuitry to make false alarms at idle be less likely to occur. Obviously something is a weak point in the system there that they dont trust, maybe the plunger doesnt go far up enough to activate at idle every time.
How hard would it be to put a jumper wire from Q12 to Q8 and do a test? You shouldnt need to solder anything, that you said risks cracking the board and you could just disconnect afterwards if not happy with it