transducer mounting

handball

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
161
I recently purchased a furuno fish finder and want to mount its transducer which is a airmar triducer. this transducer requires a 2" dia hole thru the bottom of my sea ray, the ray has about a 19 degree angle in the bottom.Airmar gives no instructions or details on how to add a anti rotation bolt to the fairing under the transducer,only to say that you need one in order to stop the transducer from turning on a high speed boat.I can only guess that this bolt must be put in a counterbore so its head is below the surface of the fairing and go thru the hull and have a washer and nut on the inside of the hull.If anyone can give me the details of this mounting I would really appreciate it.Also if the fairing and the transducer were mounted with 5200 I can not imagine turning the transducer after the sealant is cured.<br /><br />Bill
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: transducer mounting

Bill,<br /><br />I have installed a wad of them. So here you go:<br /><br />First off I presume you bought the 525ST-MSD tranducer. I don't have one here at the moment but it would look just like the used one shown in the picture below:<br />
520ST-MSD.JPG
<br /><br />The fairing block you have should match the top side of the transducer body and is probably made of a blue plastic that looks and feels a lot like starboard. That stuff cuts just like wood, and not a very tough wood at that - about like cutting through poplar or something. At any rate it can be worked very easily with normal wood working tools. It will not melt and gum up cutting tools, that is my point.<br /><br />OK, first things first. You need to get the boat itself level. Once again I will make an assumption, and that is that your boat is on a trailer. Get the boat level in the Port/Starboard direction first. Just take a level and place it across the deck and then get out there with your jack and jack stand and jack up the trailer as you need to in order to get the deck level. I find that just putting a chunk of 2x6 under one of the sets of tires tends to work well, but you do whatever you have to in order to get it level and hold it there.<br /><br />Once that is done you have to get the boat into approximately its normal running angle. By that I mean that you need to use the trailer jack up front to raise the front of the trailer so that the deck of the boat is at approximately the same angle it would be if you were up on plane at your normal running speed in dead calm water. For most boats this would be a slightly nose high angle, but not really all that drastic. You have to guestimate this one unless you have the ability to take the boat out for a quick spin. If you can put it in the water do so and take someone with you as well as a long level. With someone else running the boat lay the level on the deck pointing fore/aft and then see how high you have to lift the rear end of the level to make it read level. Then get home and duplicate that angle in your driveway (with the boat already leveled in the Port/Starboard direction). Now you're ready to begin actual instillation.<br /><br />Where do you plan to drill the hole? <br /><br />Look very very closley at the bottom of your hull forward of where you would like to mount the transducer. If there are any fittings, thru hulls, or strakes ahead of the point you choose then choose another place to mount it. At the same time look aft of the point and make sure there is nothing (like a roller) on the trailer behind the point you've chosen. Remember, the boat will go on the trailer the same way every time, within an inch or so, and so if its safe when you do the mounting it will stay safe when loading or launching. There is absolutly no reason on earth that a thru hull can not be used on a trailered boat - I just wanted to do away with that old wife's tale once and for all. Its pure hogwash.<br /><br />OK, now you've got a place in mind on the outside of the boat. Measure from the chosen point to the transom and to each side of the boat. Assume your transom to be 2" thick. Now go inside the boat and see if you have access to the same spot from the inside. Good luck on this one. Measure and measure and measure and measure and measure. If you firmly believe that you've got the right spot break out the drill.<br /><br />From the INSIDE of the boat drill a quarter inch hole through the hull. Drill it straight up and down not at a 90 degree angle to the hull itself, even if you've decided to mount the transducer right on the center line - which is just fine, and in fact often the best place to mount a thru-hull.<br /><br />Now, with a pilot hole drilled from the inside of the boat get back under the boat and see where it came out. If you have any sort of luck at all it will be within a couple of inches of where you wanted it. If it is where you want it break out the hole saw and burn a hole in the bottom. If you missed its an easy task to patch the small hole with an epoxy/high density filer mix. Do not drill the hole to a much larger size than the stem. If the stem is 2" then drill a 2 1/8" hole, no larger. As for myself I prefer to drill the hold the same size as the stem and then enlarge it slightly with a rasp, but going slightly larger is fine.<br /><br />Once you have the hole drilled you need to do this; take a very good hard look at the plug that comes out of the hole saw. See if there is any sort of coreing material or if its pure glass. Let me give you a hint, there is almost no chance at all that there will be any coreing - despite the nonsense you see all the time on the internet there are actually almost no boats of trailerable size that have coreing anywhere, let alone in the bottom. At any rate if your's is one of those extremely rare boats that has any coreing you have to deal with it.<br /><br />If it has coreing break out your pocket knife (or dremel tool) and get under the boat. Dig out the coreing material back from the hole by about a quarter inch. Then go to your local West Marine, Boater's World, Boat US, or whatever is handy and pick up a quart of West System epoxy (and hardner) along with a can of their #404 High Density filler. Take it home and mix up about a half a cup of the stuff. Jump right under the boat and wet out (just take a throw-away paint brush and slobber some, but not much, of the juice in there) the cavity you dug out with your knife or dremel tool and then go back to your mixed pot and put in enough of the high density filler to make the stuff about the consistancy of peanut butter. Now get back under the boat and take that blob of peanut butter looking stuff and force it into the dug out chamber all the way around. It will bond nicely because you wetted the surfaces out completely with raw epoxy/hardner mix beforehand. There, you have just sealed off the coreing and it took you all of 15 minutes - problem solved forever.<br /><br />Back to the real work.<br /><br />This is the smart part. If you don't already have one head for Sears and pick up an adjustable bevel. This a a tool that has a handel with an adjustable blade, that can be locked at any angle that will run you around $5. It will be with the woodworking tools. Take it and get under the boat with a short level (about 9") and set it at the angle of the hull directly at the hole you drilled. Put the level on the bottom of the handel part of the adjustable bevel with the blade up against the hull. Level it up and lock the blade. <br /><br />Now, take the bevel back to your saw and use it to set the angle necessary for cutting the fairing block. Cut the fairing block basically in half, at the angle of the bevel. You need both the top and bottom half of the fairing block after the cut. The bottom half will be used outside of the hull to level up the transducer, the top half will be used inside the hull to give a flat surface that is at 90 degrees to the stem to allow the Transducer's nut to seat to a flat surface. The square flat top of the fairing block that is on there to act as a saw guide will be facing up and will provide a flat level surface, at a 90 degree angle to the stem, for tightening the nut to.<br /><br />Next step [This is a step that you probably have never heard of before but its what is going to make your instillation work better than anyone elses]: Take the bottom half of the fairing block and get back under the hull. Take a sanding block with 36 grit paper on it with you too. Hold the fairing block up to the hull and check it for level in both the Port/Starboard and Fore/Aft directions. Using that block and sandpaper I want you to spend the next hour getting that transducer perfectly level. Don't worry about the other half of the fairing block, its not nearly so important, but the half on the outside has to be exactly correct (remember, you already have the boat itself level from side to side and in its normal running attitude). I said this will take you an hour - in truth it will take you maybe 15 minutes, but it will make all the difference in the world in performance.<br /><br />When the fairing block is as good a fit as possible go drink a beer or something and get the notion that you need an anchoring screw or bolt out of your head. Once you've done that come back to the boat with your sealer and 4 stainless steel flat washers of either 1/4" or 3/8" size (they sell them at both Lowe's and Home Depot). You are going to need to have someone inside the boat to help you - so go get them too.<br /><br />A wise person will do all of this next set of steps as a trial fit first without sealer and will check the bottom face of the transducer for level in both directions before they ever break out the tube of sealer:<br /><br />Inside of the boat take the top half of the fairing block and mark where it is going to contact the inside of the hull. Lay down a full coat of your sealer (you do not need, and I do not recommend 5200 for this, 4200 will work just fine and is preferable). Place the top side of the fairing block into the sealer. Then, from the bottom thread the transudcer cable through the bottom half of the fairing block and then up through the hole in the bottom. Have your helper grab the cable and pull it into the boat. When its all in there except the last couple of feet stop and put your sealer on the top half of the fairing block. Also coat the top of the transducer itself with sealer. Do not put sealer on the stem, just up close to the stem. Now, slide the fairing block half up to the hull and press it in place (the sealer will hold it) and aline it exactly straight pointing forward. <br /><br />Now the part you didnt' expect. Take those 4 stainless steel washers and lay them into the sealer that you put all over the top of the transducer. Put two of them together, stacked, one each side of the heel of the transducer. They are going to act as spacers to hold the rear of the transducer just a couple of sixteenths of an inch farther away from the hull than the front is. Place them inboard of the edge of the transducer by about a quarter inch and about a quarter inch from the aft end of the transducer, two on each side. Now push the transducer up with its stem going through the hole. Your helper, on the inside, will gentelly pull the cable up as you do this and then will put the big nut on - by hand. You will stay under the boat to make sure the transducer stays dead straight pointing forward. Tell your helper to tighten down that nut - firmly by hand, until they see some of the sealer squeezing out from the sides of the upper half of the fairing block - all the way around. I want that nut firmly tight, but not tightened down with a wrench of any kind at all. <br /><br />Now stop.<br /><br />I want you to let it all set for a day and a half. After a day and a half you go out there with the channel locks and tighten down that big nut. Get it firmly tight, but don't try to see how hard you can crank on those channel locks. What you have done here is allow the sealer to seal and the nut to hold. What you have avoided is squeezing all of the sealer out of the two joints under the boat (hull to fairing block is 1 and then fairing block to transducer is 2. You also have a complete seal between the top half of the fairing block and the insider of the hull.<br /><br />There, that's it. This whole process takes a couple of hours. Its not at all difficult.<br /><br />Got any questions?<br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: transducer mounting

unless you've decided to mount the transducer right on the center line - which is just fine, and in fact often the best place to mount a thru-hull.
What “center line?”
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: transducer mounting

Sometimes I refer to it as the 'keel line' but what I mean is the dead center of the hull. On a lot of boats that spot is either gently rounded or dead flat, making the cutting of the fairing block awfully easy. Sometimes they are clearly defined with a sharp point, which isn't very hard to cut either, just set the depth of the saw blade to half the thickness of the fairing block.<br /><br />The block he probably bought, the blue ones that Airmar makes, have a flat on one side that is used as a saw guide. It is that side that you end up using on the top, but its real purpose is to hold the block steady while you cut it and to give you a good 90 degree face to the stem. Very handy. I cut them with a table saw myself (and I've done a bunch of them with a hand saw), but I know a couple of guys who stick them in for a living who prefer a band saw. Everyone to their own.<br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: transducer mounting

Transducers mounted in the center of the keel, lowest part, should be either ‘pocket mounted’ or ‘lift mounted’ only.<br /><br />I like the advice about surveying the boat on the trailer before mounting the transducer. Prevents an “Ooh, duhh” from showing up in the “Stupid Human Tricks” forum. :)
 

handball

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
161
Re: transducer mounting

Thanks so much for all the trouble you went through to answer my question thomwv, you sure are a detail guy.Yes you are right the transducer I bought is the 525st-msd airmar.Do you recommend buying the plastic fairing for $70 or just making the fairing from wood? The fellow at the local west marine store said he makes his fairings from treated 4x4's, what do you think?I have measure the deadrise in the area foward of an existing speedwheel using an adjustable triangle and a small level taped to it.The angle looks like 19 degrees, I have also taken a block of wood and made the 19 degree cut on my radial arm saw.I was going to take the cut piece and put it up to the bottom and try the level under it and see how it looks, after this I would make any adjustments and cut the final fairing.Do you feel that by shiming the rear of the transducer up the thickness of a flatwasher it works to stop rotation and thats the reason you do not need the extra hole and thru bolt? sound reasonable to me I really dont care for extra hole in the bottom.Why do you prefer 4200 over 5200 just curious.<br />Airmar ought to hire you to write a detail description such as you have given me and put it on their instruction sheet.<br />Is this the type of work you do for a living?<br />Thanks again for all your help and trouble<br /><br />Bill
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: transducer mounting

Bill,<br /><br />No, I just do it on the side a bit. Been doing it since sometime in the mid 80's or so.<br /><br />The reason I prefer the use of sealers other than 5200 is that sooner or later someone is going to have to take that transducer out of the boat. It might be you. Seriously, I prefer to use 5200 when both of its properties, sealing and as an adhesive, are required. When just sealing is required I use West Marine's Multi-Caulk (just because you can buy it most anywhere). With the transducer you're really not looking to glue it in place, just to stop the water from comming in. The truth of the matter is that you could use just about anything you had handy, that could stand up to water, and it won't leak a drop EVER! Plain old bathroom caulk would work about as well as anything else as far as I know (though I haven't tried it).<br /><br />The washers aren't there to hold anything from spinning, trust me, that standard thru hull is not going to spin on you. Leave that thing in there for a week and it will be everything you could possibly do to get it to move even with the nut removed. No, the reason the washers are there is much different.<br /><br />Notice that I basically told you to go to great effort to make sure the transducer was dead level. Well, when you put those washers back at the heel of the transducer, between its top face and the bottom face of the fairing block, what you were doing was tilting it slightly forward of facing straight down. This has two desirable effects. The first and most important is that it stops an enveloping bubble of air from forming over the transducer's face, the second is that it has the slight effect of allowing you to catch up with the strongest part of a return echo when under way. The angle it introduces is just a couple of degrees (the transducer will actually work just fine with it out of level up to about 10 degrees according to Airmar) of forward tilt. So the overall effect is that with any sort of luck at all the transducer will be able to read bottom for you at any speed the boat will go. Its really that simple.<br /><br />As to building a picket for the transducer mounting, well, you can do it if you like. I have done it just 3 times in my life and it wouldn't bother me a bit to never do it again. Its just a pain to do and if you ask me its really not worth the trouble. Also, and I don't know where you are or what local rates for glass guys is in your neighborhood but the ones I've done I charged $400 plus materials for the installation just for the pocket, and another $100 on top of that for the transducer install - for a total of $500 for it all. That is a lot more than most guys are willing to put out to install a $200 transducer. For that kind of money you could use an M260 (very high performance in-hull transducer). I don't know what a Lift type mount is, other than maybe one of those low profile depth/temp transducers that can be removed. <br /><br />At any rate if you want to do a pocket mount I can tell you how. Its really not all that hard to do but its time consuming to make the glass housing (use the actual transducer for the plug-mold) and then to glass it into the hull after you cut out a hole in the bottom to match the transducer's face. Also, with the transducer you have you'll notice that it has two sort of ears at its top, on each side - well you have two choices, either grind them off (something I've never done) or simply glass it in place knowing you'll have to cut it out if you ever want to remove it. I've never thought either of those was a good option.<br /><br />Oh, I know what it is I was forgetting. That $70 fairing block you mentioned. I assume you are looking at the "High Speed" version at that price. I don't think they are worth the money. I've had great luck with the standard one that you can buy for about $45 all over the place (www.cmelectron.com 800 332-2628, part number 320359). As for making one out of wood, even treated wood (or teak), I haven't done that in 10 years. The reason is that eventually they crack, and sometimes eventually comes early.<br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: transducer mounting

As the cost of the transducer rises, so does the occurrence of pocket mounting. It is protection for the transducer when mounting on the center of the keel. It is must be done in such a way that the acoustic window is not lower than the keel, but not equal to it, either. Recessing the transducer too much can allow the leading pocket edge to create fluid turbulence than interferes with the transducer’s function, not unlike what happens with a misplaced transom mount. There is also the possibility of trapping air bubbles in the pocket over the transducer’s acoustic window…again, no good.<br /><br />I have never seen lift mounting in the mid and low-end transducer market. You’ll see it used with high-end recreational, commercial fishing, and fairies with center keel mounts. The transducer is mechanically raised and lowered below the keel line. I think the greatest advantage of sounding from the lowest point is realized when navigating. I don’t see any advantage to lift mounting for fishing, except with scanning sonar. I have seen a lot of the local fairies when pulled for maintenance. They are all steel hulled with a steel transducer mount on the bias. None are mounted on the keel center.<br /><br />Mounting on the keel is perhaps easiest but it is also the most vulnerable area you can place a transducer. Anything flexible that comes in contact with the forward keel will fold and is channeled down the keel until it smacks into the transducer. Depending on what it is and its resistance in the water, it may not be a problem or it can do significant damage.<br /><br />Anytime you venture anywhere near shallow water, a transducer on the keel must be a concern. Contact with substrate, grounding or beaching, your transducer is 99.9999999% guaranteed to be damaged. And changing to a trailer with keel rollers is going to be a bumpy load…but only the first time…your transducer won’t be an issue after that.<br /><br />I have seen instructions and illustrations for cutting and mounting a fairing on the bias. I have never seen it for the keel center…but I haven’t seen every transducer’s instructions, either. My transducer is pocket mounted in the center of the keel. Doing it was every bit as much fun as Thom described, but I would not hesitate to do it again. For casual sporting use, I do not recommend it unless there is absolutely nowhere else to mount the critter…not likely to be the case. Avoid mounting on the keel.<br /><br />MODERATOR: The transducer w/fairing mounting question has pop up a few times. Thom has taken the time to draft an outstanding and comprehensive, easy to understand instruction on how to accomplish this task. It should be included above in the FAQ section.<br /><br />Thom – I still want to know what Dock Boy Sloopy did that caused you to threaten to put him in the cooler? :)
 

handball

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
161
Re: transducer mounting

Cant thank you enough thomwv for all the trouble you have gone through to help out on this subject.I have printed all the info out and will be following it step by step.<br />Wish you were on my dock here on long island new york as it would be great to exchange boating info with a guy that knows what he is talking about.<br />Thanks again, <br /><br />BILL
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: transducer mounting

Bill,<br /><br />I just went back and edited the original post to clean up some of my scatter-brained writing, typos, and pure bad grammer. With any sort of luck it will make a little more sense now. It should make a little more sense now.<br /><br />Along with that little bit you may want to go to the Airmar site and take a look at their instillation instructions. You can see them at Airmar's PDF files for transducer installation Notice that the left side of the page has little pictures of the transducer types, just click on the appropriate one.<br /><br />Actually I'd love to be able to be there with you when you install your transducer. I don't give a tinker's-dam about the little bit of money I sometimes make doing this, I just love messing with boats.<br /><br />18Rabbit,<br /><br />Now I know what you are talking about. Its a mount that looks a lot like a trolling motor, but usually on a lot larger vertical tube. I've seen them but I've never installed one. I couldn't immagine a circumstance where I'd find that the best way to mount a transducer, and if I did run across such a case I'd leave it to someone else to do. I will note this though, that mount is available for the Airmar 256 and 260 model lineup. Those transducers are large and present an awful lot of drag. I personally don't like them because they just offer a much larger line-snagger on the back of the boat but that's not my point. Those high performance transducers work very well as in-hull mounts, and with the M260 will likely perform better in-hull than it will as a transom mount. So its awfully hard for me to justify all that hardware.<br /><br />At any rate, I haven't done every type on every boat, far from it actually, but sometimes I can help folks who are feeling a little unsure about drilling that big hole in the boat bottom. I just want you to understand that its not that hard a job and its not one that a guy can't do for himself. The hardest parts are really finding access on the inside of the boat and getting up the nerve to drill the hole. Just keep this in mind, its not at all difficult to patch the hole and try again if you have to. I've had 5 different thru-hulls in my hull since it was new (1991) and just switched over to an in-hull this year. Nothing to it.<br /><br />Oh, here:<br /><br />From Inside the hull<br />
trans1.jpg
<br /><br />From Outside the hull<br />
trans5.jpg
<br /><br />Thom
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: transducer mounting

Bump ^
 
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