Johnson 225 Ignition timing

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I have new server, some new parts and have to run 80 feet of phone wire, to get back on line, I hope Monday.

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I would put boat in water, bring up to operating temp, set idle timing, and make adjustments to where you get a good idle in gear, boat moving. After this is done recheck idle timing, should be close to 6 degrees. I would then use operator that I trusted and have him/her run boat full throttle, and at least 5000 rpms and check wot timing. make adjustments with engine off. Get a good grip on something and hang on.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Finally got to run some tests on this ignition today. Jumped the solonoid terminals with a remote starter switch, main harness disconnected. Spark was the same as using ignition switch and harness. Faced spark tester toward the shade and the spark looked O. K.<br /><br />Charge coil output tests came out as follows. Output was 209 Volts from both connectors using a multimeter set to AC and multiplying by 1.414. When testing the charge coil for short to ground Clymer's manual specifies no voltage should be seen between either pin in the charge coil connectors and a good ground. During initial carnking no voltage was present, but then I got a jump to about 10 volts on both connectors in both pins (After several seconds cranking). Does this indicate a short in charge coils to ground? If this is the case, how do I get an output of 209 Volts, well past the 130 minimum for a good charge coil? Also performed the charge coil resistance tests and the charge coils were well within limits. My feeling is that the charge coils are good.<br /><br />I then performed the sensor coil tests. Output was supposed to be .2V, I got half of that on the same autoranging multimeter, set to AC and multiplyed by the same factor. Also performed the resistance tests. Resistance is specified for Stevens and Merc-o-tronic Ohmmeters. Mine is neither, but my book says resistance values may be higher or lower but should be uniform. I was looking for between 300 and 1000 ohms, came up with uniform readings around .6 MEGAohms! The resistance between the two D pins on the timer base connectors should be between 200-260ohms, I ended up with 1200+. Essentially the timer base failed all tests.<br /><br />My feeling is that I have a defective timer base that may explain my problems.<br /><br />Any comments on these readings would be appreciated. Is the 209 volt charge coil output acceptable, my book just says 130 volts or more. Are my sensor coil readings consistent with a timer base failure? Any problems using an autoranging multimeter? Could a timer base failure cause the problems setting timing to the extremes I've seen? Before I get into pulling the flywheel I'd like any feedback I can get as to whether I'm on the right track.<br /><br />As always, I appreciate the advice.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

BUMP

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Double bump?

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I would set the meter on 500 volts AC. I have a fluke 88 with an adapter, and it does not always work on the auto range. Set on 5 volts AC for the sensor. If the spec is 130, I think 209 is too high. Still working on my computer. If you have the DVA adapter set meter on DC volts.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

My neighbor has a multimeter which is somewhat better than mine and will allow me to select the range. I plan to repeat the tests by Monday, before I pull anything apart.<br /><br />Clymer's only says on the charge coil output test that voltage should be 130V or more. I read 148 on AC, multiplied by 1.414. Since I haven't ever run these tests before, I didn't know if there was a top end limit or if it was typical to see voltages this high. Charge coil resistance test was right on.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

the factory specs for checking CDI ignitions are based on using an appropriate DVI meter or adapter. Using an AC meter and multiplying by 1.4 does not always give the correct reading. I've compared both AC and DVI readings and most of the time, they are not near the same. The DVI meters or adapters must put a load on the output voltages as they go thru the diodes and capacitors.

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

When you check the sensor output voltage,the black meter is connected to termial D, red lead to A,B,C, of the connector your working on. Then the 2 D termials are connected with a jumper and the meter black lead is connected to ground, then probe the A,B,C, termials each side with red lead. Voltage should be same for each test, except the start sensors may be different from run sensors. Specs are 0.2 volts or higher. The ohms are 230+- 30 between the 2 D termials and 360+-30 for the other test.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

These are the same values as in my Clymer's although they list a higher resistance value for Merc-o-tronic ohnmeter. All resistance values I got were way too high, 1200 between the 2 D terminals, my ohmeter gave good readings for charge coils so I think the meter is accurate. I am considering getting and electronic specialties 480 multimeter with DVA adapter to retake output readings on both charge and sensor coils as well as powerpack output. I want to be really sure before pulling the flywheel. Only want to do it once.<br /><br />Anybody have an opinion on salvage yard parts such as a timer base? I could save 75% going that way.<br /><br />Thanks for all the input everyone, I appreciate it.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I can't help with parts but try here for your instrument. These people specialize in O/B test equipment.<br /><br /> Instruments <br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Contact http://precisionmfgsales.com/ <br /><br />they carry Steven and MercTronic test equipment along with a lot of special tools.

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I located the service bulletin, the specs using a Fluke 29 series 11 meter, is 975 +- 100 ohms all except between the two D termials, which is still 230+- 30 ohms. Set meter on low ohms scale. The last one of these I tested, tested bad 10 out of 30 tests. The ohms would also change as the air temp rose. I would try Rapair for timer base, may help you with trouble shooting.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Finally an update, and I am as baffled as ever. I've only been able to devote a few hours here and there to this problem, but here is what I've done.<br /><br />I bought an Esitest 480 multimeter with DVA adapter, ran all the ignition tests with this device. For those considering a DVA reading meter, the 480 plus DVA adapter was about 80 dollars, I've been very pleased with it and would really recommend such a purchase to eliminate guesswork with AC readings.<br /><br />I also found some OMC troubleshooting tips on the web that show certain meters may show megaohms on part of the sensor coil resistance test, but resistance between both "D" terminals should always be 200-260 ohms with all meters.<br /><br />My timer base failed several of the resistance tests, most importantly the test between the two "D" terminals showed resistance much above limits. The sensor coil also failed the output test on several of the pins.<br /><br />Stator passed charge coil output and resistance tests, as well as power coil resistance test. While checking the charge coil for shorts to ground while cranking, no voltage is supposed to be noted. I did note a voltage in the range of millivolts, fluctuating. I don't think this can account for my problems, charge coil output is almost 200 hundred volts DVA.<br /><br />I also performed power pack output test (cranking) on each primary wire. Book calls for 100 volts or more, mine were all greater than that, lowest was 119 volts. I also found one suspect ignition coil.<br /><br />I determined to replace timer base. Purcahsed a new one and ran resistance tests on it. It passed all, confirming the one on boat was bad. Pulled flywheel and replaced timer base.<br /><br />For those of you who haven't pulled a flywheel before, listen to the advice on this forum and beg, borrow or rent an impact wrench. I soaked flywheel nut 3 days with PB blaster, and tried breaker bar and hand impact tool. Didn't budge. Rented a Milwaukee electric impact wrench with 300 Ft/lbs torque, 2000+BPM, nut came off in 3 SECONDS. The advantage of the electric is portability, my boat is on a lift, easier not to drag a compressor down there. 20 bucks to rent. As far as a puller, I already had a harmonic balance puller. It worked, after a fashion. 2" screws were too short, 21/2 too long. Ended up using 21/2 with several washers after one 2" stripped. Retapped hole course thread, used impact wrench on pressing screw, took a few minutes but off it came. I would recommend getting the OMC puller and using impact wrench save trying to find the right screws.<br /><br />Now for the kicker. Put everything back together, nice spark on spark tester. I set the max spark advance screw to where it was before all this began. Went to WOT in forward gear, jumped soloniod with remote starter. Stuck inductive timing light on and cranked, max advance still at 28 degrees BTDC! Book calls for 19-4=15. If I try to retard it that much I will run out of adjustment screw. Something ain't right. I used a new flywheel key, although old one was not sheared. Flywheel TDC equals #1 piston TDC. <br /><br />I'm at an impasse here. I replaced a defective timer base, but still have my problem. Power pack passed output test at cranking speed. Could it be screwing up my timing? I intend to ground quick start wire from power pack to ground tomorrow and see if it changes my result, but it should only be about 5 degrees. My flywheel is only marked for #1 cylinder, would like to see if all the others are off as much. May have to mark flywheel for other cylinders to see. Could power coil account for this problem? Stator seemed to have slight leak to ground in range of millivolts, but output is very strong. I don't think this would make it so the timing couldn't be set. Could my inductive timing light be a problem? It's worked fine on cars, is boat voltage in plug wires enough to screw up inductive mechanism?<br /><br />I put the detail in here to help other guys who haven't run these tests or pulled a flywheel before, to save them some time. I ask the patience of the "gurus" in reading all that. But I really need any advice you gurus can give. Why can't I set the timing on this motor????!!!! Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, and thanks to all for the past replies and other posts I searched for info.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Your full advance timing is about 13* too far advanced. Grounding the quickstart will drop that back to 7-8*. One turn of the advance stop screw is about one degree so that means you need to screw the stop screw in seven or eight turns. Do you have that much screw left?<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Spent the night searching more old topics and have some thoughts.<br /><br />1)I saw some posts about wrong flywheels screwing up timing due to different magnets. How would I know if I have the right flywheel? Anybody have the correct part number for my flywheel so I could check? Magnets underneath looked good when I had it off.<br /><br />2)Powerpack output at cranking speed is good, I have a spark at all cylinders. Can a powerpack fail in such a way as to advance the spark 10 degrees+?<br /><br />3)My powerpack is actually two powerpacks in one assembly. Am I correct that one of these powerpacks goes to the port bank of cylinders and the other to starboard?<br /><br />4)I believe grounding the white/black temp sensor wire from the powerpack will disable the temperature induced spark advance. Is this correct and is there any way to disable quick start totally?<br /><br />5)This motor always ran well from anything above fwd idle to WOT. It was just amazingly hard to start cold, a poor idler, and would occasionally quit after extended time at slow speed. This is what led me to check the timing in the first place where I found it off by so much. If the timing was really advanced by as much as my timing light indicates, shouldn't I have noticed it at high speed operation? And why would the motor run that way but not with timing retarded to where it should be? Will definately check timing on other cylinders, gotta be a problem with number one.<br /><br />Mostly tossing thoughts out here folks, my wife doesn't want to hear me mumble about it and any feed back would be appreciated. God Bless anyone with the patience to read this far.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Hooty:<br /><br />Nope, don't have that much screw left, no way to retard it that much. That's one reason I figure it's not supposed to be that way. Plus the engine ran well WOT, so how could it have really been that far advanced? And when I set idle timing to book value motor wouldn't run!<br /><br />I'm thinking more along the lines of a problem causing number one to fire at the wrong time, give me a bad reading. Will definately mark flywheel and check timing on other cylinders tomorrow.<br /><br />On a positive note, thorough check of ignition system indicated bad timer base, one bad ignition coil and a bad plug wire, all replaced. Just not the cause of my problem.

 

[93bronco]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

part # for the fly wheel is 583970, it looks to be unchanged atleast from 1991 to 1994. hope that helps

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Thanks for the info 2K boat.<br /><br />1) Checked flywheel, this is the number I have. It is followed by 23 LT, anyone know the significance of this number? Something to do with direction of rotation? I also obtained the parts diagram for this ignition from a helpful individual. It shows a flywheel pully #912059 mounted under the flywheel. I don't have this. I do have magnets attached to the inside rim of the flywheel, the holes for the pully bolts are there, but one isn't completely drilled out. Looks like they were never used. Can anyone tell me the purpose of this pully?<br /><br />2) Marked flywheel and checked timing on number 2 cylinder, it's off same amount as number one. Impending T-storm prevented me checking any others, but I'd guess they are all firing around 28 degrees BTDC at max advance.<br /><br />3) I forgot to check the powerpack number, but since I've worked with it so much I know it conforms to wiring diagrams and illustrations. The powerpack is the only thing I can think of that could advance the spark this way, any other opinions? <br /><br />The most baffling thing is that aside from the really hard starting (cold) and rough idle this motor ran really well through all other power settings, and it seems to me I should have had detonation problems among other things if the timing were really this far off. And I don't have enough adjustment screw to get to book value. Setting idle timing to book value caused motor to stop running. It seems to me this motor, "liked" the settings it was at.<br /><br />I think my next step will be to get it started and put the idle timing back where I found it. Perhaps the new timer base, a set of new plug wires and the replaced ignition coil will have cured my starting problems.<br /><br />Two last questions. Are there any potential mods in the rebuild process that could have required or resulted in an 8 to 10 degree timing advance through entire operating range? Where most people would see 18 degrees I'm getting 28 BTDC. And has anyone ever encountered a timing light problem that has caused uniform biased readings? This light has always worked well for me on automobiles.<br /><br />Thanks again to all!

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

1. For power steering.<br /> 2. Does the timing pointer line up with # 1 on flywheel, when the stb side top piston is at TDC?<br /> 3. Powerpack could be stuck in Quick Start.<br /> 4. Timing light could be bad, check on different engine.<br /> 5. Check the power coil.