Is this a good prop selection?

RatFish

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Sorry to bother everyone with another prop question.<br /><br />I have a 20' boat with a 5.0L (220HP) Mercruiser Alpha 1. Recommended WOT is 4400 - 4800 RPM. My current prop is 14 1/2" x 19P aluminum prop. With a light load (2 people, no extra gear) I just (barely) reach 4400 RPM. When loaded up with the average number of passengers and gear, I only reach 4200 RPM.<br /><br />I was going to try a 14 1/2" x 17P aluminum prop to get the RPMs in the recommended WOT range with the normal load. Is this a good starting point or should I go with a 15" x 17P aluminum prop?
 

rickdb1boat

Supreme Mariner
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Jan 23, 2002
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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Yes. That will put you at 4600+- with a normal load, which is just right..
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Any idea how a stainless steel prop would alter my selection?
 

Spidybot

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

First of all the diameter is most often a fixed number once you've decided on the pitch.<br /><br />If an alu prop works ok for you (no issues with ventilating on trim/cornering, hole shot), the benfit from a stainless will be marginal and hardly be worth the extra cost. Many seems to b happy with the Hustler alu prop (good price, good performance - link on this site).<br /><br />The mentioned 17" sounds right and will put you at the mentioned rpm - and at the same time improve hole shot and help your engine stay healthy!
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

rickdb1boat and UU, thank you for your input. I appreciate it. Here's another twist...<br /><br />I really don't want to sacrifice too much speed. For the most part, I'm happy with the hole shot that the 14 1/2 X 19 aluminum prop is giving me. A better hole shot while only sacrificing 1-3 MPH would be good. Do you think if I went with the 15 X 17 (aluminum), I would loose less top end than with the 14 1/2 X 17 (aluminum) and still give me a better hole shot than the 14 1/2 X 19 prop while still boosting my WOT RPM into the 4400 - 4800 range?
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Ratfish;<br /><br />I know this is a prop question, but I can not help putting in my 2 cents.<br /><br />Total dependance on the prop to solve all of the performance issues will always be a comprimise. By your comments you already know that a lower pitch prop will improve your acceleration but reduce your top speed. Since you are running a bit below the recommended RPM, you have room at the top, but more RPM's is not likely to give you more speed (with the lower pitch) just more fuel usage, and with better acceration.<br /><br />How about looking at making the hull more efficient. The hull design is more of an influence on the boat speed than the prop or the HP.<br /><br />Do a search on Smart Tabs on this site. You will get more top end (2 to 4 MPH), and the acceleration to plane will improve significantly without a prop change. You will have your cake and eat it too! And, they have a performance satisfaction guarantee at the same price as a new prop.<br /><br />Side benefits will be no porpoising, better ride and handling, and ability to stay on plane at 15 MPH or less.
 

cobra 3.0

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

nautiJohn, how do the trim tabs give better top end? Is it because the boat weight is distributed over a longer plane created by the tabs?
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

nautiJohn,<br /><br />Of course I welcome your comments. The main reason I like this board so much is because of the varied (and valued) input. Thanks all!!!<br /><br />I understand the benefits of Smart Tabs. I have read a ton of posts that discuss them. There are a lot of happy Smart Tab owners. I understand that changing the diameter/pitch of a prop will increase performance in one area and take away from another.<br /><br />Are you saying that Smart Tabs will increase my WOT RPM? What I'm trying to do is get my WOT RPM in the recommended range without a considerable loss of top end and fuel economy. I figured that I need an additional 300-400 RPM.
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Cobra & Ratfish;<br /><br />First let me ay that I appreciate you all allowing me to step in on this topic. What I am preaching may sound like a sales pitch and may sound like another way of looking at boat performance, and maybe a bit of both. Thank you for your tolerance!<br /><br />Please keep in mind that I was never on a track to invent a new concept in Trim Tabs, I simply wanted my 10' (9.9HP) inflatable to stay on plane at a lower more comfortable speed. From that point on it was a learning process, and a business. <br /><br />Here is what happens with an active Trim System. This is not theory it is the results of in use testing and tuning. It is not rocket science either!<br /><br />Start with the most efficient position for the prop - perpendicular to the surface of the water. Also as close to the center line of the boat as possible - ie high enough to push through the center of the boat but low enough to insure good prop bite ( no ventilation, no cavitation).<br /><br />Next look at boat balance - if the motor is mid ship (MasterCraft) the balance is good. The better the balance the faster the boat. <br /><br />Next the hull design comes into play but keep in mind that the boat hull is rigid (fixed). A fixed hull will perform best at its optimum predetermined design criteria. Sounds complicated but it is not. For example a barge is designed to handle heavy loads, and a ski boat is designed to pull skiers and go fast. <br /><br />So we have three important and basic factors in allowing the boat to perform at its peak: Power (thrust), Balance (boat position in the water), and Hull design.<br /><br />Without getting into any specific design here is what the trim tabs do for a boat. <br /><br />1) They will compensate for balance issues (ie: stern mounted motors - I/O or outboards) <br />2) They will change the Hull design to increase the efficiency over a broader range of use, and pay loads.<br />3) They allow the motor/prop to be positioned for the most forward thrust.<br /><br />With most I/O's and Outboards the prop is used to do more than its intended job (propel). <br /><br />Tilting (trimming) the prop in helps lift the stern and achieve plane easier, but it is a compromise to thrust (acceleration).<br /><br />Tilting the prop out helps lift the bow to lift more boat out of the water. This is a compromise between less wetted surface, and prop efficiency.<br /><br />Stern loaded boats tend to porpoise, and tilting the prop under (down) will help keep the bow down and reduce porpoising. <br /><br />Lastly, the boat is never running under the same conditions, and therefore the most efficient (sweet spot) speed is hard to achieve. <br /><br />If you accept the above, then this is the reason Smart Tabs will not only increase low end performance but also top end performance. This includes more speed and obviously more RPMs. You are not just looking for RPMs as if they do not come with more speed then there is no need to turn the engine faster (more) as that just uses more fuel.<br /><br />Smart Tabs are active! They continually adjust to the changing conditions of speed, water, load etc. This is a hull design modification!<br /><br />Smart Tabs are adjustable (fine tuning) to the individual characteristics of the boat. Further optimizing the efficiency.<br /><br />Smart Tabs help lift the boat, and control the ride (porpoising and chine walking and tracking) like a suspension system on a car.<br /><br />Now, we have taken these extra jobs away from the prop and allowing it to do (only) its intended job of propelling. Trimming the motor for the best prop bite (not attitude or ride control) produces more Speed and More RPM.s. <br /><br />Properly adjusted you should see 100 to 200 more RPMs and 2 to 4 MPH increase in speed.<br /><br />Now since we are not worried about Hole Shots (since Smart Tabs do not allow you to get into a hole) the acceleration will be better, but more importantly you may be able to increase the pitch of the prop, and achieve even more top speed. <br /><br />Lubedude posted some of his results on his bass boat. If I recall he went from 57 with no tabs to 59 with the tabs and cut his hole shot in half. He then changed to a 25 pitch prop from a 23 and now runs 62 to 63 MPH. This is typical!
 

quantumleap

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Feb 16, 2004
Messages
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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Ratfish-
Do a search on Smart Tabs on this site. You will get more top end (2 to 4 MPH), and the acceleration to plane will improve significantly without a prop change.
You already stated that you had no problem with holeshot or planing. You are concerned about RPM's at WOT, which you should be. I understand nautijohn is trying to help to improve planing of your boat, but his recommedations of using tabs to solve your problem do not apply here. If when normally loaded you are now 200 rpm's below the lowest end of the recommend rpm range at WOT, then you do indeed need to go down in prop pitch. The way your rig is set up now, your engine is lugging at WOT and the rest of the powerband as well. This is very hard on the engine. Tabs are a fine addition to enhance performance/handling characteristics of a boat but will not properly correct your lack of rpms and should never be used to compensate for an improperly set-up engine/prop combo. Even if you get an extra 100-200 rpm's with tabs as advertised by nautijohn, that would only put you at 4300-4400 rpm's and ideally you need to be at 4600-4800. You'll have to try a 17p to start and maybe even need a 15p to get you at the upper end of your recommended range.
 

LubeDude

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Well Quamtumleap, as much as I back up Jonh on a regular basis, and the fact that I love his product, and as much as you and I have bumped heads in the past, I have to side with you on this one, I dont think the tabs will do what he needs in relation to getting the RPMs up where he needs to be. Its going to require a prop change.<br /><br />Wow, how about that, we actually aggreed on something!! :p :p
 

ufm82

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Jul 29, 2003
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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

You may have other issues besides the prop...<br /><br /> I ran a boat last year with the same set-up- a 20' cuddy with the 5.0L 220hp with the Alpha drive. I ran the boat with a 14 1/4 X 20 prop and it OVER-REV'd. It would go to 5100 pretty easily. I had to re-prop to prevent that and went with a 23 pitch prop. That put my RPM's right at 4600 and the boat ran right around 50 mph with that prop. Holeshot suffered a bit, but I could have changed that by going to a 4 blade. <br /><br /> You didn't say what boat you are running and I therefore don't know the hull design or the weight of the boat, but you should be able to turn max RPM with a 19 easily if it is a typical pleasure/ski boat. Is the engine tired? Other issues? Does it run properly? Is the bottom full of growth? <br /><br /> You didn't give a top speed figure so I couldn't guess what type of boat. <br /><br /> The stainless prop WILL help your overall performance- cost is the big factor. You will increase RPMs by about 100 due to less drag, your top end will go up a few MPH also, and holeshot will improve because the blade will flex less under the initial load. With the 220 hp engine, you are putting a good load on the prop when you take-off and the blades can lose as much as a full pitch. The stainless prop won't flex like the aluminum prop does. You can usually change from an aluminum prop to a stainless prop and increase a pitch without any effect on your RPM- speed will increase as a result. <br /><br /> UFM82
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

nautiJohn, I agree that addition Smart Tabs would bring me all the benefits that Smart Tabs are known for. But I think the addition of Smart Tabs alone will not give me the minimum 300-400 RPM boost I'm looking for. I could add 600 RPM and still be in the recommended WOT RPM range. I see no way around getting another prop with a lower pitch. <br /><br />Quantumleap and LubDude, I know that Smart Tabs provide a ton of benefits when added to a boat but I really didn't consider them at this point in time. IMHO, getting Smart Tabs at this point seemed like treating the symptom rather than the problem. You guys could not have said it any better.<br /><br />UFM82, Here's some additional info. See what you think...<br />Boat is a 2004 Bayliner 205 (20', Bowrider). It is powered with a carbureted, 5.0L (220HP) Mercruiser with an Alpha 1 drive (drive ratio 1.62). Published dry weight is 3100lbs. I'm probably at least 4200lbs with an average load. I bought the boat new. The engine has around 35 hours on it. It starts and runs great. Top speed is around 48MPH on speedo with average load. There is no bottom growth (dry stacked). I know of no other problems. <br /><br />TO ALL, When UFM82 mentioned "Other issues?" this came to mind. When I was around the 15 hour mark, I did run into some shallow water at about 2500 RPM. No visible damage was done to the prop and outdrive except some paint being removed (buffed off). The bottom that came in contact with the prop and outdrive was sand and mud. Like I said there appears to be no "detectable" damage to the prop and outdrive other than the missing paint. After this incident the boat seemed to perform as it always did. There is not noticeable vibration.
 

quantumleap

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Feb 16, 2004
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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Ratfish- first off, use a diagnostic tach to check the accuracy of your in-dash tach. If it is correct, prop down accordingly. Different hulls will vary in performance. You can't just lump all 20 footers with a 5.0 engine into the same prop catagory.
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Quantumleap, good point. I'll hookup the tach I use when working on the cars.
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Listen guy's I am not saying that the Smart Tabs will give you all of the RPM's required to get you back in range. What I am saying is that the hull efficiency should be addressed first. Why? Because unless you do, you have only done half of the job, and if the Tabs are added later the RPMs will increase more and may go over the limit. You would then need to prop "up" again. <br /><br />I guess I do not understand why you want RPMs only. To get more RPMs without more speed at WOT is a waist of engine wear & tear, and fuel consumption. <br /><br />I can not tell you how many more RPMs you will gain because I do not know how efficient or inefficient the boat is now. If you could not reach the RPM range you want, and you were draging an anchor, you would pull up the anchor first, right. Or would you re-prop to get as much as you could, then pull up the anchor.<br /><br />When you find the "correct" prop the Smart Tabs will still give you more speed and more RPMs, because the hull will be more efficient. <br /><br />It is not only a better hole shot I am talking about, its better performance at every level including WOT. Just like LubeDude! He ran 65mph with a 27 pitch prop, but could not get that speed without the Smart Tabs. He eventually moved back to a 25 pitch five blade because he wanted the instant hole shot he had with the origional 23 pitch. Now his WOT is 63 MPH, and If he disables the Smart Tabs I bet he goes back to 61 MPH. <br /><br />There is no substitue for makeing the hull more efficient. <br /><br />IMHO this is a classic thought process (changing props first or only) that has been fertilized for 30 years. This concept is and always has been a comprimise one way or another. <br /><br />Fix the hull first, then find the correct prop. If you were within 200 RPMs then you would only need to add Smart Tabs.<br /><br />I would agree that you should double check the Tach.
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

nautiJohn,<br /><br />I apologize. I was under the impression that you were recommending Smart Tabs as an alternative to reproping. I didn’t realize that you were recommending Smart tabs then re-evaluate my prop situation. You are correct in your analysis that improving hull efficiency will dictate what prop would be best suited for my needs. I’m not just looking for higher RPMs. Ideally, I want to increase top end and hole shot. The only way to do that would be with Smart Tabs (or trim tabs) and a correctly sized prop.<br /><br />My original question was assuming I did not have Smart Tabs or Trim Tabs installed. I’m not saying that Smart/Trim Tabs are out of the question but for now I just want to get in my recommended WOT range with my current configuration. I’m sure I will be talking to you about Smart Tabs in the near future but for now (this summer) I just want to get the proper engine/outdrive/prop configuration.
 

BrianFD

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

RatFish, I changed from a alum to ss prop 2 years ago, same pitch. I noticed a remarkable increase in both hole-shot AND top end. Not saying you will see the same results, but see if a dealer will let you 'borrow' a ss for your next run. Might have to plop down a deposit, but if it doesn't help, then you're not out much. Besides, he'll probably be glad to sell you an alum the next size down.<br />Just my $0.02.
 

RatFish

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

BrianFD, Thanks for you input. I was wondering if a ss prop would fit the bill. I'll have to check with my prop guy to see what his policy is on "try before you buy". This guy has been in business for years rebuilding and selling props and outdrives, so I'm hoping he has a leanient policy. I'll have to talk to him.<br /><br />Edit: Prop Guy
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Is this a good prop selection?

Ratfish;<br /><br />No offense taken, and again I appreciate you allowing me to step in on what was a Prop Topic.<br /><br />Most small boat owner think of trim tabs as a fix for some other problem, because that has been the mith sold to us by boat builders and dealers for 30 years. It is hard to re-invent the wheel!<br /><br />More dificult is trying to convince someone to drill holes in their boat, when there is the chance of "fixing" the problem by changing a prop.<br />There is no way that you will understand just how much your boat will change until you actually try them. Nobody can explane it to you, not even me!
 
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