REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

[Orkazim]

I'm posting this again because i didnt get any responses that were "too" helpful before, this thing is driving me nuts<br /><br />Ok, I'm new to the list and semi-new to boating. Now I have a 72 Johnson 85 hp. This motor according to my research never came with solid state ignition, only points. Well my motor has a pulse box thats says Wabash on it and no signs of any points. Now I am assuming that this is an aftermarket deal or maybe someone pulled this setup off of another motor that uses the pulse pack and swapped. I understand that OMC had Wabash build their boxes for them but not sure if they all had Wabash on the sticker or not. The wiringon my motor is now exactly the same as it would be(according to clymer) on a 69-72 100,115,125. everything is clean and appears to be in good shape. <br /><br />Now here is my story...Bought the motor, heard it run before hand,roughly, got to the shop put the motor on the boat and got it running nice with good gas and a little playing. Now I head to the river and put in and now got no spark. 3 days prior at my shop I had it running fine. <br /><br />Ok now I have done all the logical things associated with getting this dude to fire and also all the tests laid out by clymer. Main question, on the pulse pack side, if I ohm out the kill wire(black with green) should that wire be grounded? It has continuity between it and the block, and when I turn the ignition on I get a voltage reading. This is with the plug disconnected and the box isolated from the anti-reverse spring and sensor. Should this side of the wire be grounded and also have voltage when I turn the key to on? Could this be my problem? I am getting 12 volts to the box and about 10 under cranking. I've attatched my digital voltmeter to the output of the pulse pack and get no reading. I will try the lightbulb test tomorrow to see if I get anything. UPDATE: I did try the lightbulb and i get nothing!<br /><br />My ohms reading on everything work out to specs as described by clymer. Would the stator have anything to do with firing? If I check voltages under cranking what should i get? I have 9.3 VAC RMS between the two leads not hooked up and 8 VAC RMS with the leads hooked up. Now this is not using a peak volt meter, but if I understand correctly I can multiply these numbers by 1.141 (see i do remember something from those college classes) and get Peak? Or does this not always work under this situation. <br />Can I check the sensor in the same way? Between the two leads or between them seperately and ground? As I stated before they ohm out correctly but can I crank the motor and get a voltage from them and is it AC or DC. <br /><br />Ok last thing is if it is the pulse pack being bad, can I fix it as I've seen some people talk about if you can remove all the lovely goo on the board. I have large experience with circuit boards and their designs and am able to read schematics and all that wonderful stuff. Or I've also heard of some people using a GM something and coil...as we all know these pulse packs are a pocket buster. <br />Well thanks for all the help in advance and i know thats a lot to read but as a troubleshooter myself I know what people want to see!! <br />Anything you can send me or ideas to check this or that please let me know!<br /><br />No-T<br />cjs@ezworks.net

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

The 1969-72 85s have points (hidden under the flywheel) and a pulsebox. The 1969-72 115/125s have a sensor and a pulsebox, though the pulsebox is different. It's not much of a chore to swap systems (the crank'll accept either). You can look under the flywheel & see whether you have points, or post the PN of the pulsepack - either'll tell us which system you have and make it possible to answer the other questions.

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

This motor does not have points. It is the sensor type. And I cannot find a P/N for the pack anywhere. All it says on it is Wabash!!<br /><br />Thanks

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

No-T..... The 1972 85hp Evinrude/Johnson does have what is called "Battery Discharge Capacitance" ignition whereas it utilizes a electronic powerpack but incorporates two (2) sets of points (original equipment).<br /><br />If you've run the test that I've explained various times where a small 12v bulb is attached to the terminal where the primary coil wire and pack output wire join, and the bulb did not glow when the engine was cranking over (s/plugs out, 12v applied to input of pack), that would indicate that the powerpack is faulty, possibly intermitently.<br /><br />I do not have one of those units but for your information, the OMC original and superceed part numbers of that powerpack is/are:<br /><br />383299 (original)- - 389551 (2nd number) - - 397123 (latest number) - - I'd estimate the cost to be approximately $325.00 .

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

Yes, Joe I have done the lightbulb test. Along with everything else i mentioned in my post many times. I've come to the conclusion, that you also state that my pack is bad. But, I just want to get it straight that this is NOT a points style ignition. And I don't know if those part numbers you gave me would be correct. Either someone changed this stuff over from points or this motor really isn't what it says it is! <br /><br />Anyways, tanks for the help

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

How do you know it has the sensor system?

 

[ajp]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

My 1969 Johnson 115hp had the following problem.<br /><br />None, intermittant, or weak spark. <br /><br />Cause found:<br /><br />1st I found one of the push on leads to the air gap sensor was loose. After that the engine had great spark. <br /><br />2. The sensor had a slight crack in the plastic around the screws and it would move. The sensor has to be gapped correctly for the system to work. <br /><br />We set it and went to the lake an it worked great for a few minutes. Then it started cutting out and then no spark. Pulled the flywheel and reset the gap and it ran great for the rest of the weekend. <br /><br />Since then I replaced the sensor,distributor, rotor, and wires. No problems since.<br /><br />If I have no spark, I would go first to that sensor and its connections.<br /><br />PS:<br />The factory service manuals have all the necessary troubleshooting steps to find the problems. <br />Go and get an "actual factory service" manual for your motor. Ebay or somewhere else. You will always struggle with aftermarket manuals covering multiple years and hps. Too confusing.

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

Ledgefinder, I pulled off the flywheel and looked. And said yup that definitely ain't points. <br /><br />Is there a way to check the sensor? Can i read a voltage while cranking? Is there another value I can check? The gap is set correctly, I will pull the flywheel again and check for cracks on the sensor. <br />Like i mentioned in my post, the kill wire coming from the pulse pack is grounded, and also has voltage to it and ground when the key is in the on position. I read somewhere where it is not good to have a voltage reading...is this true? I have the wire disconnected from the anit-reverse spring doohickey and still get no spark.<br /><br />Ok so if i find that it is the pulse pack, is it possibly to hook up some type automotive box? Or is something like this not reccomended?<br /><br />Thanks again

 

[mrc]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

No-T, if it isn't points then somebody has changed<br />something on you from original equipment.<br /><br />You need to do somwhat more than pull off the Flywheel<br />to reach the points.<br /><br />There are a couple of screws which hold on the alternate that once remove permit you to slide the<br />alternator off the distributer body. Then remove<br />the distributer body you "should" find two sets of points.<br /><br />If what you have is unknown, non-standard then I<br />don't know how to help you. Perhaps a couple<br />of pictures of the power pack and what you find <br />under the flywheel might ring some bells with some<br />peopler around here.<br /><br />The most common non-standard is "upgrading" to the<br />non-points system that was available in the 100/115 hp models of that vintage. Next most common is replacing the "Battery CD ignition" with a more<br />conventional automotive points/coil setup.<br /><br />Good luck to you.<br /><br />Mike

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

OK, so if you have the sensor system, you should have two black wires with white stripes on them, leading under the flywheel. There may be a green wire with them. Hook up the pulsepack normally; blue to coil, red (or purple) to keyswitched 12V. Ground the fat, high-tension lead coming out of the coil against something. Now briefly touch the two black/white wires together. If your pulsepack is OK, you should be able to generate a fat spark on the high tension lead each time you touch them together. <br /><br />The above is from the CDI applications book, available free online from www.rapair.com (it's their catalog).<br /><br />I don't know what the spec (voltage or waveform) is on the signal coming from the sensor. Anybody else know?<br /><br />If you had the points setup, pretty simple to convert to regular old points/condensor/coil ignition. OMV ran them that was until 1968. You'd need to consider the relative inductance and capacitance of your coil & condensor, plus provide resistance to the 12V going to the coil. If you can find one, it's a straight swap to put the points timer base on your motor (obviously since it came that way). BTW, maybe someone swapped a whole 115 powerhead onto your motor; the freeze plug on top of the port bank of cylinders on your motor should contain you serial number and maybe model number, check them against what's on the regular tag on your transom clamps.<br /><br />I've got numerous sensors, powerpack, etc. if for some reason you want to keep that system intact. I prefer the points setup.

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

You're touching the two thin black-with-white-stripe wires together, then looking for a spark between the coil's fat high-tension lead & some ground.

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

Thanks Ledgefinder, I will try that today. <br /><br />I have thought about changing over to points, but didn't know if it would be more of a hassle than getting a new pulse pack. But if i do get a new pulse pack, is that something i need to be worried about everytime I go out?<br />Also trying to find a good parts outboard to swap everything to points is seemingly hard to do around here.<br /><br />But I guess the question is, since you suggested changing over, is it in my favor not to run this pulse pack ignition?<br /><br />You say you have parts for such motor? Do you have one for this system? Shoot me an email on what you have or what I could do with what you have please, if you have the time.<br /><br />Thanks for the help, and if anyone has more ideas let me know!<br />Nic<br /> cjs@ezworks.net <br /><br /> - To mrc, yes i have pulled everyhing off from under the flywheel, stator, rotor, distributor, etc. It is a sensor setup it has the two white on black wires and a black on green wire for the anti-reverse. And it has a big ol' fat sensor siting right there! You mention the automotive setup, many people have talked about it, but it seems to be a secret mod for everyone because no one wants to detail it!

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

Last minute thought, could my problem be in my sensor? If there is no visable damage to the sensor, will these go bad???

 

[ajp]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

You want some good advice?<br /><br />If you are going to work on your motor, you better get an original factory service manual. It contains step by step troubleshooting guides and explodeded diagrams for your motor. Don't buy an aftermarket manual. Get a factory manual. Read it 10 times to learn how your motor works. <br /><br />Anything less and you will be spending money you don't need to and will be a blind man led by blind men.<br /><br />A pack for your motor will cost $250 or more. Don't spend 1 more penny til you know the problem. <br /><br />The voice of experience is speaking to you.

 

[Hooty]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

That's excelent advise, ajp.<br /><br />Here's the address for the OEM Manual.<br /><br /> OEM Manual <br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[papasage]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

i have a 1972 factory shop manul from a dealer that went out of buisness. it shows a 85 hp 1972 has points . i can send you a copy tonight . when i git home frome work . i will have to take a pic and e mail it if you need it . em maile me at papasage10@yahoo.com

 

[Orkazim]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

Awww come on Arlan, thats what I have ya'll for!!

 

[mrc]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

As I remember, the "car ignition style mod" had some<br />issues regarding high current draw if flywheel stopped in the "wrong" posistion. People worried about fire hazard.<br /><br />Mike

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

You certainly could burn your points out with the old car systems, if you left the ignition on (I'm feeling like an old geezer here). One thing that helps is the resistor on the 12V across the coil is heat-sensitive, so it ups it's resistance when hot - sort of controls the current. The other thing it does that's nice is when the motor is cold-started, the resistor is cold, and provides max current for a good spark.

 

[bigkeebouskie2002]

Re: REPOST- no spark 72 85 hp Johnson....somethings amiss

ok i'm new to boating and outboard motors i also have a 1972 85hp johnson with points we did all the recomended test(gaping points,light bulb test ect.) and we have power going in the the black box on back of motor but nothing coming out i hear everyone calling it a pulse pack,or coil pack but the factory manual calls it a bootser and the maker is a motorola i have been looking for a post on how to convert it over to the car coil set up i was hoping somone could post link to it or maybe reply with step by step on how to do it and what i will need i know i'm askning but i know someone out there likes to help and the reason for not just buying new coil pack is i bought a mint 1977 carlson/glastron for 300 and a 1972 85hp johnson at auction for 200 soo see i'm cheap thanks for any help in advance